Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Today I'm joined by Laurent Schmidt from Project eddy, an EU driven initiative transforming how energy data is accessed and shared across Europe by building a decentralized open source data space aligned with EU clean energy package rules. Eddy supports interoperability, strengthens Europe's energy resilience and reinforces the EU's geopolitical and economic ambitions. Laurent, thank you for being here. And could you briefly explain what EDDI is and how it fits within the EU Clean Energy Package?
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Yes, edi. It's a project which was launched now, three years ago. If you remember, we had a few interviews. It was about prototyping what is an energy data space. And at that time we had no clue what this is.
What was the purpose of such a data space which we really worked hard into aligning with EU regulations, especially with the Clean energy package and the network code for demand side flexibility, where the main purpose of the network code, as you probably know, is to connect with devices close to consumer environments, residential homes and so on. And where we realized through the writing of that code, which I was partially part of with Acer and TSOs and DSOs, that one of the crucial elements was to enable interoperability across the entire chain means from consumer, from devices in consumer home environment into aggregator, technical aggregators, flexibility, service provider up to the level of grid operator. And here you need to build up an architecture which is capable of enabling such interoperability for the freedom of consumers. So basically enabling services development in the consumer environment, unlocking consumer for being tight with certain OEMs or a certain service provider and basically doing it plug and play for the entire ecosystem.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Now whenever we discuss data or interoperability, inevitably the issue of standardization comes along. So I wanted to ask you, why is standardized energy data access so critical for implementing EU wide regulations and interoperability requirements?
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. I think standards do exist, they are badly implemented for the moment. So it's not about creating standards, that's what we learned through Eddie. It's about learning on how to implement them, how to certify usage of these standards, and moving away progressively from the so called game of Open API. It's good to have an open API, but it's also being published by a certain manufacturer and so it drives a lot of inefficiency in terms of integration.
So the idea of Eddie is to agree on what are the common core set of standards which needs to be used to exchange such data. We've decided very early into the project to use the common information model describing grid data as A basis for building a data dictionary so that basically all devices and stakeholders interacting through the AD framework are able to understand each other and use basically the right interoperability standards for the right usage. It's about actually creating a dictionary of terms and basically learning on how to create sentences so that we can discuss with each other in a full language, which is the data space language.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: You said that there are various stakeholders that they need to use this dictionary. So I was wondering what barriers exist today to due to national differences in data sharing procedures and how does EDDIE address them to create this dictionary?
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Yeah, so the barriers I think are partially related to the fact that historically flexibility was not addressing end user device. So basically when you were addressing a limited number of sites, interoperability was of less importance. Now you've got millions of EVs, millions of heat pumps, millions of chargers.
And so of course if you are a manufacturer of these mass produced devices, you must be able to interconnect these devices the same way across Europe, even though the market design is different in the various areas. So that's where it comes very essential to enable that. What's going to be the benefit at the end of the day is it will bring much more liquidity into flexibility markets. If you listen to DSOs today, they are kind of objecting sometimes that liquidity is not enough to build local flexibility market. And they are right in the sense that very distributed flexibility is not enabled yet into this market. Eddy and the interoperability framework is going to enable this at big scale. It will allow to plug any heat pump, any charger, any hybrid PV inverter in a plug and play manner in a consistent way, with consistent set of data defined in this data dictionary.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: And how closely does Eddie align with implementing acts on interoperability that are being developed by the EU Smart Grids Task Force?
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Perfect alignment. Perfect alignment. We've decided in Edit not to reinvent the wheel simply, but just to pick the various initiatives started from the network code for demand side flexibility electricity balancing guideline, which is now mandating TSOs to build the same API across Europe for all balancing markets. So we've been using this as a starting point. Then we've looked at what the DSOs and TSOs have put together through the new implementing regulation and we've simply basically mapped these requirements to certain set of standards and expanding some of these data exchanges because I think we were probably covering 80% of the dictionary, but still 20% of the terms were not properly defined for certain data exchange, which we've now completed Pretty well.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: What about open source infrastructure? What role does it play in fulfilling EU Commission's expectations for transparency and trust? Given also the fact that there have been many times that the EU Commission has said that the non open source. I don't want to name names here, should align with our rules and regulations.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Open source is very crucial from different angle. The first one is avoiding basically to lock into a single vendor OEM hyperscaler environment.
So basically as you know, Europe wants to build a strong cloud based and AI based industry which is sovereign industry from Europe. And that means that we want to build this infrastructure in Europe and we want them to be protected from cyber threats from basically risky countries.
Open source is very interesting because it allows for certain critical components to avoid reinventing the wheel and take already basically available technology stack being developed historically by the cloud. One of the key components which we use in EDDY is is a data exchange layer called Kafka which is a very interesting environment. It's real time streaming derived actually from the Internet industry, from LinkedIn and few others which we now fully apply to the energy industry. And it avoids simply to make use of the technology without having to pay a license and that because it is jointly developed and so on. So what you see in the AD framework, the base infrastructure is open source so you can use it without any license and you actually build your service on the top and so that it minimizes the cost of exchanging data for the infrastructure.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: From Kafka I want to go to Aida and from a very known writer to a nice opera, one of my favorite actually. And I would like you to tell us first of all a little bit what Aida is and then from a regulatory standpoint, how does Aida ensure compliance with consent, privacy and cybersecurity regulations?
[00:08:02] Speaker B: It's very important.
We started Eddie, if you remember in the first interview, we're very much around regulated data and smart metering data is creating a single window in data access to smart metering information across Europe that has been demonstrated that's feasible. It has been implemented in several countries.
While we progress through the project, we realized that as much as metering data was important, sub metering data was also very important. Means data coming from DERS equipments.
So that's what we call in the terminology of European regulation dedicated measurement device. It's a bit technical and basically to be able to access these data from the equipments you must authorize this because these equipments are owned by consumer and as per the Data act, equipment connected to the Internet are actually data owned by consumer and consumer needs to basically give their consent and need to ensure basically people are orchestrating this data exchange in a proper way. And that's where IDA comes into play. IDA has this uniqueness to manage the consent, but also to manage real time data exchange. We did not want to basically, if there is a storage in a home or a V2X car as one of the use case, which we are able to demonstrate here, we want to be able to offer the same real time visibility to the DSO of a battery which is physically located in your living room. If it brings value to the DSO and the consumer. By the way, as a side note, I would say that you don't see it, but you have the ad overlay data space over the NLIT here today and interconnecting various booths. And we'll be very happy to show you how it interconnects the ad boost with few others into the event.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: Absolutely, I'll be there.
Now we discussed data access from the consumer a little bit perspective. I want to see it now from a cross border data access Support which is EU's goal, the European Commission's goal of a unified and competitive energy market. How will standardized cross border data access do that?
[00:10:12] Speaker B: It is very important.
So it comes through different angles. The first angle is the network code for demand side flexibility which is calling basically European harmonization across flexibility markets. So if you are a car, an EV or charger, you must be able to participate into this flexibility market in the same way whatever is the design of this market in a certain country. So that's the first element and come the electrical vehicle into play. And as you know, an electrical vehicle is a bit of a strange load, it's moving around. So it's not one of these load which you hang onto your wall. It's actually coming from Poland to France to Germany and so on. And here I think there is no more reason for keeping and tightening basically a data exchange between a car and an aggregator to a certain country. If you are across border between France, Germany and Belgium, you're actually going most likely to offer your data and services across different aggregators depending where your car is and so on. So now cross border exchange with use cases like V2X V1G and so on is absolutely crucial and essential. And I think the industry overall does not question this. It's a question more how do we achieve this in step by step manner. And that's where the Data for Energy initiative is very important.
Eddie is playing an important role there. I'm myself also part of a lot of these use case definitions, particularly related to aggregation and flexibility activation.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Lauren, I'm going to be a little bit cynical now because what we discussed makes total sense. It's amazing in a beautiful pink environment, if I may say so. But what is also very important is the finer so what opportunities does that bring for the EU, for the countries, for the industry, etc. Don't do that Ross, please.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: So you start touching the topic of dissemination. I think we are an exploitation. We are really now entering this phase into the project. We completed pretty much the final demonstration. It will be done by December and then between December and June next year we are going to go into this dissemination phase. So one of the key questions is how is the industry going to adopt this framework? Not academics, but the industries and we are already working in the context of Data for energy into enabling this framework to be used in various European countries. I think there is a coalition of willing countries which are building up right now while we speak who are willing to use it for a next implementation.
You may follow a website called seeds.energy, which is an interesting initiative, ongoing and the other one is very, very interestingly is we've got territories outside Europe now wanted to copy what we've been doing with data space and not small ones, I mean territories like us, which recognized recently into some few exchanges that they are probably 10 years behind on this topic, but they urgently need this.
We were with Australian two weeks ago and Australia is seen as normally, I would say way forward when it comes to Dr. Integration and so on. And when they saw what we started to implement data space and say yep, that's something which is for sure required in Austria and mostly for the purpose of cybersecurity. Actually at the end of the day, as you can imagine, exchanging these crucial consent sensitive data close to real time is also posing certain cyber threats to the grids and to the network. And that's what also the data space bring is basically a clear roadmap when it's related to cybersecurity protection. Again aligning with the cybersecurity network code which is being cooked while we speak by NSOE and the EU DSO Association.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Okay, I didn't know that that for once we are ahead the competition in Europe by far even that is great to hear. I would like to ask you a little bit because I know that EDIC is sort the progeny of another project and we had sort of a continuation and this played a role I think in us being ahead of the competition a lot. Like you said, can you please elaborate a little bit on that and then we're going to discuss geopolitics a little bit.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's a continuum as you say as ourselves we've been implied into a continuum of project interface one net Eddy and now the next phase are Eclipse Digital and ncma. The both are here by the way.
And what is very cool I would say seen from SME like ours is that we see really building blocks are being reused are being basically integrated. And I would say that the dictionary which I was referring is really building up in an open manner. So we do see this happening in CMA is a new step in terms of implementation. I think in CMA is probably going to be the final more academic approach and there will be a need for more industrialization, exploitation and so on. And that's where we think Seeds Energy is going to be an important initiative between coalition of willing countries and basically business partners and willing now to implement these open source technology block into a real operational environment.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Exactly. So it is gaining a second life as a business, not any product.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: And that fits very well with the deployment of the network code for demand side flexibility which will require such an infrastructure. I think we lengthy discussed it with European Commission and Acer and I think there was some recognition that something needs to happen there. So I'm confident it's going to be industrialized at scale. We are not anymore into wishful thinking, we are into wishful operational steps.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: That sounds great.
Going back to geopolitical situation that I mentioned before, I was wondering in what ways can harmonize data flows, enhance Europe's ability to manage crises whether energy related or geopolitical? Because I think that AD can play a role in that.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So the geopolitical part I would really put it about bringing sovereignty and cyber protection onto the critical European infrastructure. And what you can clearly see is building an overlay of data exchange on the top of grids requires this data exchange to be very strongly governed and secured. And that was very clearly said by TSOs and DSO through the flexibility code discussion. I think there's various reports recently being produced in the Parliament about risk related to China in particular, just to be very blunt about it.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Remember in the first interview we did, I was kind of guessing that that would happen.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: That's not exactly. And now you are actually we are
[00:17:10] Speaker B: in the middle of that. So the other element which I see is, and that's more an indirect is that Eddy is actually going to enable faster integration of renewable into grids simply because it's going to free space into already congested grids simply because the accuracy of observability of all these edge devices is going to be improved. So basically grid operators are going to be able to operate their system closer to their limits. So it's all good because then you're going to minimize the amount of backup thermal generation which as you know, heavily have us relying onto thermal and fossil fuel which are imported from countries which we don't like very much in Europe.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Exactly. And I would say this is also one of the ways that EDDI complements broader EU initiatives such as the Data Strategy and the Green Deal, right?
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Absolutely, that's correct.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: So what benefits do you see for consumers now when data access becomes secure, uniform and rights based across the eu?
[00:18:13] Speaker B: So the key is freedom of choice. So you're going to select a car because it's a car, it's a good car, it's enabled, V2X ready and so on. You're going to select a charger because it's a good charger, because you like it, because it's connecting with your pv, because it's bi directional and all that kind of things. And you're going to select your aggregator because it offers you the best return and benefits onto the device which you have yourself selected. So that's going to reposition the consumer at the center of his energy decision in view of the service provider offering the services.
And I would say the data is going to come with this so that you're going to be able to say, okay, I bought my heat pump, I bought my battery charger, I'm now going to connect it with this aggregator, this grid operator, this. I have to do it anyway because the grid operator is regulated services.
And I'm going to make it work. I'm going to make it work in the sense that it's going to return benefits, profit from flexibility for me. And it's not minor. If you are talking about V2X use cases, you probably talk about 2,000 to €3,000 per year on your bill which is going to be returned from flexibility services to consumers. So that's what people don't realize. It is a major shift in terms of the amount which they pay now to charge their car to heat the home in terms of basically become a free flexibility trader with aggregators. That's what's going to happen in the coming five years.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: That sounds too good to be true. Of course I trust in you after what you said about China that a few years after you were.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: You can meet again in five years.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: Exactly and come to our booth.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Come to our booth. You'll see what I mean.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: I will do that.
Now, how can energy service companies leverage ad to scale innovations across nations borders? Because you know what let's do, let's advertise a little bit this project. Let's show our listeners what it is about.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: So unfortunately for the moment the flexibility area is not mature enough and we still see ecosystems which are very country specific. So if you are a very good aggregator in a certain country, I will take an example and just. I don't have any specific interest into that. But let's take Voltalis in France.
It's a large aggregator, it's known for its capability of doing basically demand response during the winter and so on.
But it is basically attached to the French regulation. To the French.
And so what we hope is Eddie framework and framework like that is going to really accelerate deployment of these actors not only from one country to another one and basically enrich competition into these and help these actors to grow. And I could have taken others like Kraken or Octopus or EDF or Iberdrola
[00:21:03] Speaker A: and so we're talking utilities, solution providers.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: It's going to facilitate these people to actually deliver their portfolio of services in a consistent way across Europe. And so if I'm a consumer in France and if I like a service which is being offered in Norway and I will be happy that these actually players come from Norway and offer into France, why wouldn't I like that? Absolutely. So that really is behind this data exchange.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: What lessons has Eddy learned about balancing national interests with EU level harmonization goals? Because this is very, very.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: And as you know, I'm coming from NSOE in my background and so on. So I try to help to steer the project in a direction which would be a loss of effort, which would be to try to use such a project to align national regulation. It's never going to happen in Europe.
So basically the way we are organized and governed, the EU law comes and then you've got an implementation which is done by the country. And so we've been careful on living basically with the market design of the countries.
Build a layer which is in between, which is the network code layer, but also connect with existing infrastructure in the country. So we did not force any market design change and so on. We just enabled data exchange respecting basically the market design which are being deployed in each country. It would have been a mistake to try to harmonize all market designs across Europe. It's a wishful thinking. I wish good luck for people who want to do that, it's going to take another 30 years. We don't have time to wait 30 years. We need to get this network code implemented in the next five years at best.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Now, as we're ending our conversation, I would like you to make a prediction again and then we'll see next year if you are correct or not. So, looking ahead, what regulatory or geopolitical practical developments will most strongly influence Eddy's evolution and projects like Eddie?
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Definitely AI. AI is going to be the next game changer. It's going to change the way you build software, the way you build interfaces, user interfaces.
It's going to lower the cost of doing such an integration, but it's also going to raise the bar of risks for countries like Europe because you are going to have the tendency to rely against to the big hyperscaler from whether us, China and whatever. And that's one reason more for relying on such an infrastructure so that basically this AI is used to the European interest, that the knowledge stays in Europe and that we can grow basically champions of AIs and there are fuels which are definitely very relevant. But relying on the very solid data exchange infrastructure to feed all these AI bots, which is in the future going to make the system plug and play.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: I know I said that was the last question, but now I have one more and it is about AI. I was under the impression that we are way behind our competition and whatever is happening with China, with us, et cetera. Is that true? Because the way you talk, I think that we're in a good path, more or less, yes.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: I'm not as pessimistic as that.
I think we've invested in Europe in certain topics which are data protection, in particular consumer protection, which is very unique to European, and of course what goes with the Data Governance act and so on, which sometimes is perceived as basically being a regulatory overhead. But it's, I would say for me a prime requirement so that good quality data goes into feeding the AI bots. So you can be as good as you want in an AI bot. If the quality, if the data which feeds your bot is bad, the bot is going to be having a lot of hallucination and you're not going to trust the bots. We've done things in Europe which position us very good, very well when it comes to data preparation. And we also have a few champions when it comes to AI engines and all that kind of thing. So definitely the AI war is not finished at all. And it's so crucial for Europe sovereignty. But I think initiatives driven by the Commission are going to help also this ecosystem to further flourish and be less dependent on foreign territories.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: That's wonderful to hear. And on that positive note, I would like to thank you very much. For more insights, join the ENLIT community.
