Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast series from Enlida and France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Aretid Daradimu. I am the editor of the EU Energy Projects Podcast and your host.
In this episode of the EU Energy Projects podcast, I am joined by Dr. Istvan Vokonye, Communication and exploitation leader from the Budapest University of Technology and Economics.
Together we'll explore how digital twins can strengthen Europe's renewable transition, build a federated ecosystem and shape the future of energy resilience.
Esvan, thank you for being with me today. And let me immediately ask you, Europe faces a dual challenge. Moving to renewables while keeping the grid resilient and cost effective. What are the biggest obstacles in achieving this balance?
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Thank you Arti, I'm greeting all the listeners and thank you for the opportunity.
A really nice question for starting and the short answer, I guess it's time. Engineers can do almost everything if they have enough time and money and in some cases at least one is missing and in many cases both. And currently we have to do the transition. We have to react somehow to the market issues and what is happening around worldwide. In energy policy we have to react on the replanning and rebuilding plants and everything else on network level because in whole continental Europe the age of the assets are quite outdated.
But we have to solve all those issues in the same time frame and in the same window. So the biggest obstacles I guess how to find the proper priorities in one side and on the other side we have a massive time pressure. In the meantime we have to think on decades. So if I build a new power plant, a traditional one, it will operate at least 30, 40 years.
So yeah, how, how to find those optimal or suboptimal points to have a common target and one more idea or one more thought to this, we have to rethink all the basic things. What we believe that we will do this or that way because we used to it.
There is no holy grail or there is no one moment solution which can suit for each problem. So we have to rethink all the basics and all the approaches. From starting point, I strong believe.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: What about digital tools? How can they help Europe handle the complexity of integrating renewables, storage and flexible demand into existing infrastructure? Because let's be honest, we cannot start from zero, unfortunately.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Definitely you're absolutely right. And from the other side it would be easy to start from zero because from scratch everything is clear. But we have to Handle the operation. We have to handle new issues and problems. In the meanwhile to rethink future of the whole grid. You're asking about digital tools and other technologies. I think technology solutions can be good or bad. I can utilize a new technology or a digital tool set on an appropriate way. Or I can waste it. A simple example. If I collect all the possible information data on DSO level from the network grid, I can sunk into information and it's worthless. But from the other side, if I can decide how to collect the information data, how should I put together a proper simulation or a digital twin or everything else? It can support me very well to fasten the processes to handle the cost levels and make a good decision based on data and based on information.
So normal human can handle 6, 7, 8 different infosources in a single moment. To have a decision, a computer can several hundreds. But I have to decide which info sources are more important or less important on how to take it into consideration.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Hello everyone, Areti here. I would like to personally invite you to discover the EU Project Zone at ENLIT Europe 2025 in Bilbao. Our event takes place from the 18th to the 20th of November. Come say hi to me at the EU Project Zone.
In this context, how do digital twins support system operators and market participants in coordinating their operations?
[00:05:17] Speaker B: When we started Digital Twin project Twin eu, we had several discussions.
What is the real added value applying digital twins?
What is the differentiation comparing to a normal simulation which we are utilizing since decades? So the most important part, I guess the reaction time. Because if we are applying digital twins, we can based on real measurement and real data and real information, not to put together a complex and and very really nice simulation toolset. But I can react on the happenings on the network, so it makes it more valuable and more close to reality.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: And that, you'd say would be the, let's say, biggest differentiation between digital twins and the simulation programs, the traditional simulation models. So are digital twins mainly, however a technical engineering tool? Or can they also serve as a decision support instrument for policymakers and regulators and also for consumers?
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Yes, from one side I'm sure. From the other side, as I already mentioned, you have to learn how to use and for what purpose you will use the kind of technologies possibilities. So I'm more than sure, not only for engineering application, should we use the digital twin technologies. So I don't have to understand the deep operation and the mathematical equations, everything else behind or beyond a simulation or a digital twin. But if I'm sure that the result is applicable enough and Clear enough to based a decision on that. For a policymaker, for a regulation point of view, we can define many, many use cases and business cases, not only technical ones, but regulation ones, cost level ones. And at the end of the day the decision have to driven by money and social welfareness on the long term as well.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: And when it comes to citizens, it should be plug and play also, because if it is very complicated, I can tell you, even I will not get into this. But why is a federated ecosystem of digital twins important rather than one centralized solution?
[00:07:40] Speaker B: What I described previously, it's, how should I say, the theoretical approach and a really nice to have way, how we can define and treat that kind of technologies and that kind of solutions. The reality is quite, how should I say, complex.
Each country has a different regulation, each country has many system operators, many data sets, and it's a quite heterogeneous situation. If you compare, for example a German market to Romanian one, the whole market concept and the operation is basically different. And it's not better or worse, just different. And we have to handle those networks, those markets in the same time. Because if, as you can remember, in April there is an outage in the Iberian Peninsula, we were able to detect it on the measurements in Hungary as well. So the whole continental works together and operates together. So we have to find a solution how to cooperate the heterogeneous participants in the same data set and data environment.
So from data handling point of view, it's really important to define common approaches and fragments and everything else. And from the other side, the federation could be a solution to handle the different parts and provide practically added value. All of the participants, speaking of the.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Outage, I remember that everybody behind the scenes were whispering, could this have been a cyber attack? Thank God it wasn't, as it turned out. But we were all a little bit afraid.
Now you mentioned that there is difference in the various ecosystems of the European Union. And you said, and I couldn't agree more, that we can't say that one system is good and the other one is not. But how can such an ecosystem, like that of twin eu, for example, allow operators to act independently while still ensuring coordination across Europe?
[00:09:45] Speaker B: It's one of the greatest issue in our project as well, to find such kind of technology and regulation and economic solution which can be applicable not only for the project participants, but all the other ones. So we are not working for, on our own or for our purposes. So therefore it's a EU funded project. The result has to be applicable from Istanbul till nothing to everyone so solution or our idea is to provide the interoperability common defined data sets and shared protocols so everyone can identify on a mature security level where they fit into whole ecosystem. And what are those steps they have to do to easily, as you said, plug and play, close to semi plug and play, apply those features. What we work out.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: Can we focus a little bit more on interoperability and the role that it plays in making this federated approach workable? Can you elaborate a little bit more?
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Yes, we will work out a federated data set and a federated working model. How to handle the data. So we'll define the input sources and the structure of the information, how we handle on the network, for example, what kind of information we should collect from the transformer or a substation or everything else, what kind of info we will collect on a market mechanism or load flow analysis. So all parts of electric power network operation and based on data sets and data frameworks we will put together based on the protocols, what kind of solution they will have to provide to apply data exchange. And if you will do that, you will install that kind of connectors. In that case, it will be more or less independent from your home regulation and your home country and the data sets. What you applied previously and what is.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: The role of twin EU in all this? How does the project contribute to building this European scale ecosystem of digital twins?
[00:11:54] Speaker B: This is, how should I say, a huge, a really huge project, at least from my point of view. So close to 20 million euros. So quite huge money, Many, many participants, close to 75 different partners and not people, but companies, research institutes, technology providers, everything else. Many demo places. You can find all the information on our website. I really want to go the into the details.
Better to highlight that from the market operation, the long term planning, the renewable integration, for example cyber security.
So all the necessary level one capability aspects are involved into the project.
Each part has a different demo area and demo participants.
So for example, the Italian demo, the German demo or the other ones. And they focus on a framework and the solution, how to solve and how to work out the digital twin part of those activities. And there is a horizontal approach as well, how to put together those puzzle items to have a complete frame and a complete picture. And later on, if you would like to test or analyze or simulate everything on for example resilience, market point of view, you don't have to apply the whole picture, but you can pick out one or another item to tailor it for your own operation on the long run. And you can test how it works.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Thanks Isvan, can't you also please explain a little bit how the European data exchange core and its connection to the emerging energy data space will work in practice?
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yes, we had a long discussion during the summer, we had the halftime discussion in Budapest. We have at 50 percentage readiness of the whole project and this part is a quite crucial one regarding the whole data ecosystem. We are in close cooperation with other European projects as well, which are focusing mainly on the data exchange and the data handling. Our focus is quite wider, but we can corporate and incorporate the results.
So the data exchange core and the reference architecture, what will be worked out in the Twinio project? Focusing on the energy sector, of course, and not just building tools, but in the same time a governance and an interoperability framework for the future projects and operators, technology providers everyone else can plug into quite easily.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: We cannot continue this conversation without introducing a little bit AI in our discussion, because it's all over the place. And I would assume when we're discussing digital twins, it should play an important role there too. So how are advanced modeling and AI? Because I would like us to discuss advanced modeling too are being used within Twineu to create reliable digital replicas of Europe's energy infrastructure.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Yes and no. And I describe why. I answer that from one side. As I already mentioned, the data exchange core and the operation, it's a neutral backbone. So we try to enable secure standardized data flows and everything else. And based on the previous results and achievements starting the twiniu project, we had to provide at least a Technology Readiness Level 5 or 6 result and to enhance that kind of approaches. And so, for example, a dynamic line rating digital twin model has already used neural networks and close to AI applied solutions previously. So it was an embedded solution. There is no directly dedicated AI toolset in the ecosystem and the demo areas. But in some cases the application of any kind of AI solution are on different heterogeneous level. For example, there are weather forecasting and renewable generation forecasting tool sets at that part, yes, quite high level. The AI at the other toolset, how to secure the operation of a SCADA system. Naf definitely on quite obvious purposes, but for example, if we going forward on data analysis and detection, in that case, tool applications are obvious to utilize altogether. AI supports for example pattern recognition and advanced modeling, technical accuracy. But it's a tool set and not a purpose.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: And how effectively is the European Commission supporting this kind of digital innovation for the energy transition? And I'm talking money also with the various acts that are coming out on occasion, regulation, et cetera.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: From a Founding point of view, it's a quite huge project, quite an enormous project. Planned results and visions are quite enormous as well. So I already, I'm pretty lucky because I had the opportunity to take part into many Horizon Europe projects. But TwiniU different, TwiniU is something, something else because not only because the NCUI are working with us and providing support, but the handling of the whole project and expectation putting on project quite different. So we faced from the starting point quite huge highlight and awareness what kind of result we can provide. And not only from project result point of view or technological point of view, but from regulation support, those kind of stakeholders who are not involved in project, from consortium point of view, but that they are supporting and following us very massively supporting the whole activity. So altogether, I guess we are in really good situation, a really lucky situation. And yeah, sure, of course we have to provide promised results.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: That is actually very nice to hear and yes, I think that N2E is always a very good help wherever we can find it. I also wanted to say that you're right, winnieu is not only big, it shows to us that are outside of the project how big and important the project and unique it is, if I may say so. But how about on local level?
You told me that more or less with the European Commission things are going really well. What about local and national level? Are authorities helping to create the right conditions or do they sometimes slow progress? Twin EU participates has pilots in many European countries. So I think you would be a good person to answer this question.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah, we have many negotiations with other project participants, so yeah, the industry is quite small on the EU level as well. So at the end of the day you will see every time familiar faces and yeah, we can discuss on project milestones and the schedule and everything else, but after the official part of the meeting we can ask each other and yeah, what is your expectation? How do you feel ongoing activity on your home country? But I should say it's really positive and I'm optimistic. So comparing to other projects in Hungary or in Italy or the other countries involved, it has a quite strong focus and a quite supportive activity because the twinio project aim and supporting part is huge enough to keep interest on the activity from one side and from the other side, yes, sure, of course we are always struggling with other resources, human resources, how to collect the data, negotiate with the local authorities to enable us to go forward.
And yeah, there are some constraints on data handling level or there are some other business strategies and business targets accompanying companies taking into consideration all the possible gaps and barriers. I feel the twinio still works very fine and from step by step go forward to the target what we define together.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: So you don't see a risk of mismatch between EU ambition on one hand and local implementation on the other when it comes to digital twins and data exchange? Or do you?
[00:20:46] Speaker B: I should say the risk is known.
So I don't feel any hidden risk or any such kind of problem. We don't see or we don't get the solution for that.
So it's always better to see issues and work together to find a solution than surprisingly facing an unseen problem. So yeah, sure of course there are some obstacles, but altogether I guess MVPs those kind of result, what we defined are possible to solve and possible to provide it on the other side, what will happen later on and when the official part of Twin U project will be done and announced that we achieved all the goals and everything else don't stop the work. And we have to be really aware that those kind of edit values and frameworks and data sets and everything with what we discussed previously, we are not allowed to put it on the floor or in a shell or something else. So we have to focus on how to apply and provide that solution to other countries to really have an operative digital twin and connected with real data sources and everything else for later purposes and later research activities as well.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Islam, I would like to conclude our conversation with your vision for the future.
So looking ahead, what is your vision for how a federated European digital twin ecosystem could transform the way Europe manages its energy transition?
[00:22:31] Speaker B: I strong believe that that kind of tool sets what we are working on can massively support not only the academia or research area, not only the companies, the system operators, but the decision makers and the policymakers as well. So for example, if any new information will turn out, for example prices or LNG or technology or anything else, we can react quite fast based on such kind of digital twin operation the ecosystem and not by stomach feeling, not only from research papers, but based on facts and data.
So thanks to digital twin model, from time to time we can analyze and simulate on real data information possible scenarios. And those kind of scenarios will be the closest to real situation and happenings. And based on that tools that I guess it's a really valuable thing.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: And on that note, I would like to thank you very much for our discussion.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Isvan, thank you very much. It was nice to be here.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: You've been listening to the EU Energy Projects podcast, a podcast brought to you by Enlit and friends. You can find us on Spotify, Apple and the Enlit World website just hit subscribe and you can access our other episodes too.
I'm Aletti Daradimo. Thank you for joining us.
