Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to this episode of the EU Energy Projects podcast. Today we're joined by Juho Kivela from the Independent and Resonance projects and Yoseba Jimeno from G Local Flex and Alexia, four projects belonging to the same cluster, namely the Energy Nexus cluster. Their work drives Europe's transition towards smarter energy management, flexible local energy systems and cleaner, more connected urban environments.
Gentlemen, how do your projects support the EU's wider goals for decarbonization, energy flexibility and digitalization?
[00:00:46] Speaker B: So, in our projects in Resonance and Independent, we've been developing tools that are applicable and efficient for optimizing and managing these cross sector energy resources.
So these are necessary to enable the carbon free, or let's say to reduce the carbon cost of our resources.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Yuseba?
[00:01:20] Speaker C: Yes. In the case of the Local Flex project, the main objective is to develop a flexibility marketplace where we can foster the development of demand response and be able in this way to facilitate the penetration and the installation of renewable energies.
And yeah, sorry, yeah. In the case of the Alexia project, which is more focused on sector coupling, the idea is to take advantage of the synergies between different energy carriers in order to optimize and reduce carbon emissions.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: What technological innovations in your projects stand out as game changers for buildings, cities or local energy systems?
[00:02:09] Speaker C: In the case of Global Flex, the main development is the marketplace flexibility marketplace, with the idea that all the flexibility resources can provide flexibility into this marketplace independently of the size or the technology that is behind it.
Also, the idea is to develop some automated trading agents so that we can trade this flexibility automatically and make it very easy to the final user to exploit its flexibility.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: And what about Independent and Resonance?
[00:02:51] Speaker B: So in these projects, actually they are good in the sense that when you have these trading agents, you also need standardized interfaces and modular software components in order to actually implement the flexibility that you're trading. So, so in our projects we are developing modular solutions using standards that are already being developed for the interfaces. So for example, we have developed customer energy manager solutions, resource manager solutions which implement standardized interfaces, and these are essential for automating the whole process, really.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Now correct me if I'm wrong, but we can't discuss standardization without discussing also interoperability. So I was wondering how important is interoperability and compliance with EU standards in ensuring your solutions can scale across Europe?
[00:03:46] Speaker B: I think it's very important to try to align your solutions with the standards, but it's also important to improve on the standards as well.
In our cases, we've been noticing that there is some aspects that can be developed and we've been trying comparing different solutions, comparing them to the standard solutions and yeah, it is important.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Joseba, from your experience, what role does the European Commission play in encouraging the adoption of flexible data driven energy solutions?
[00:04:23] Speaker C: I think that the European Union is promoting demand response, flexibility and these things by on one hand funding research projects like these ones and as well as developing regulation in order to promote also the adoption of these technologies.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Juha, are there current EU regulations or policy gaps that need to be addressed to accelerate smart energy systems and flexibility markets?
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Could you elaborate on the.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: Like?
For example, Europe is vast and it has various nations. So when we're talking interoperability, it's different in Greece, different in Finland, different in Spain.
What are the regulations, for example, that will help homogenizing standardization and interoperability in Europe?
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Well, I would say that in order to enable flexibility throughout Europe, you need regulation that takes account national interests, national the societal behavior. Maybe you need to take that it's not all in one solution that you apply the same one into different regions.
For example, I know that in Greece the end users are very different compared to Finland.
So of course the regulation should be tailored towards the end users.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: Your thoughts? You agree?
[00:06:05] Speaker C: Yes, I agree.
And I also think that it is coming now a new regulation which is going to be this network code on demand response that will probably fill many gaps that are currently.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: I get it. So we will end up having however many gears in Europe, right? And this is not a bad thing, right? Or is it a bad thing having many gears? What I mean is, for example, some countries might be a little bit late in the party, some countries might be a little bit faster. Will that create problems also societal, since.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: You mentioned them, I mean, I think we are already in a situation that intelligent energy management is being implemented in different levels in the different countries.
So for example, in Germany I know that the standardized energy measuring, it's not regulatory. You don't need to have the intelligent energy measurement in your house. But I think in Finland it is necessary and these kind of things, they make an uneven playground for companies to try to implement their solutions. Because maybe the necessary infrastructure that you are thinking there is already in place is not.
So you need to take that into account.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: That makes total sense. So what have your pilots revealed about consumer building or municipal engagement in this new flexibility and smart infrastructure solutions that you propose?
[00:07:41] Speaker C: Yeah, so the idea is, at least in Local Flex, is to develop solutions that are easy to implement by the end users and to automate as much as possible the interactions between the flexibility, resources and this flexibility market, in the case of the Lexia project, which is maybe more focused on industrial sites and flexibility from municipalities, maybe it is easier to to engage this kind of users because they see the value of flexibility more easily.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: As I mentioned, municipalities I want to discuss a little bit money, because not every municipality in every city or every country can afford to change the infrastructure of buildings and definitely not the citizens, always. So how do your projects ensure that legacy systems or existing infrastructure like street lighting can be upgraded without major reinvestment?
[00:08:44] Speaker B: I'm going to answer a little bit indirectly because it's important to explain to the end users and the stakeholders the cost incentive to do things, to do the change. Why should we give control of our appliances?
What is the monetary incentive? You need to explain that first and then to integrate the legacy systems you will need money, I think, and how much money depends how intelligent you need the systems to be.
And I guess the best solution is to just try to build as robust systems as possible so you try to adapt also the legacy systems, because I don't think there's another way to quickly access the flexibility of old buildings, unless you just need to take that into account that there is some old equipment and you need to somehow handle it.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: So some money needs to be spent. Should that money be spent, however, from the citizens, like the local owners, the municipality, EU commission, What would you say?
[00:09:56] Speaker C: Okay, I would say that the earnings for developing this kind of flexibility solutions should be shared between the different municipality users and so on. And in this way try to set also the cost of installing new equipment, new sensors, new actuators needed in order to provide this automation to legacy systems.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. You agree?
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Yes, yes, definitely.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: And how do your solutions then support local authorities and communities and businesses in participating more easily in emerging flexibility markets?
[00:10:35] Speaker C: So yeah, our solutions, the idea is that they are easily deployed by the end users so that they automate all the flexibility mechanism and trading systems. And the idea is to make it as easier as possible by automation mainly.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, I concur in our cases as well. We the ideal situation is that the end user doesn't really notice a difference whether there is an energy management system going on or not. And I think that's essential for deploying these systems to many places with different kinds of people, because I know many people that don't know necessarily anything about energy management or even care. So in those cases you need to have automation, need to have independent operation that doesn't change the environment that you're in that you would care that much.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: A sort of plug and play for the non initiated. It makes sense. Now collaboration is also very central to EU projects. What has cross border cooperation taught you about replicating these solutions in different national contexts?
[00:11:53] Speaker B: So cross border solutions are. Could you elaborate on those things that.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Can, for example, work in various national contexts?
[00:12:03] Speaker B: All right, okay.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Solutions that you can use in Spain, in Greece, in Finland to stay in the same area of.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: I think in Global Flex there's like quite nice.
[00:12:13] Speaker C: Yes. So yeah, for example, in Local Flex what we are doing, we have six pilots in different countries in Europe.
And what is common is this marketplace that we are developing and then we are adapting all the trading parts according to the different pilot needs and different users that are in the pilot with the idea that also we can replicate and maybe use some components in one country, another and so on.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah, we also have pilots in different countries. But I think then the cross border interactions are basically how flexibility is traded on the markets. If the markets operate across nations.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: That's how I get it. But looking ahead, what lasting impact do you expect your projects to have on Europe's energy transition and everyday life of citizens?
However, also looking into this cross border context, would you like to start?
[00:13:19] Speaker C: Yeah. So we want to promote the use of flexibility markets, local flexibility markets. And the idea is that when these projects will end, to use that solutions that we have developed in order to promote and to use these markets. And also regarding sector coupling, we are developing also solutions for planning and taking into account these synergies between different energy carriers. And we hope that these tools will help in the future to have more efficient energy use and decarbonize the economy.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Your thoughts?
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we would like to kind of nudge the stakeholders and building owners to the direction to take into use these intelligent energy management systems. Like nowadays there aren't necessarily that many buildings that have the capability of intelligent energy management. And I would say that that's the future and you should try to try to see forward and what benefits there could be in your case to implement these systems and participate in the trading.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: I would like to conclude our conversation with a wish, let's say, or something that you would like to communicate to the European Commission. Because I know that the European Commission is listening to our podcast. If there is one thing that you would like them to change or to focus on or something that they're doing well and you want them to continue to, that will help the projects you represent, what would that be?
[00:14:57] Speaker B: I would say focus on continuity across projects.
I have found that very important in this that you have for example people that working in multiple projects throughout many years and there's a certain continuation that you have the same group of people working in same projects and when you start a project you don't need to start at the beginning every time because you have people that you already know and then you might have some of the same pilots already implemented. There's already implementations that you know of. I think those are very important things.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: Beautifully said. Would you like to add something?
[00:15:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I would like to say that also regulation is very important and here the European Commission has a big role so that sometimes the problem is not a technical problem but it is how to apply and how to if it fits into existing regulations. So if we are able to have this regulation ready for these kind of solutions that could be very nice.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Gentlemen, thank you both very much for your insights.
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