Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast series from Enlida and France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Aretid Daradimu, I. I am the editor of the EU Energy Projects Podcast and your host.
In this episode of the EU Energy Projects Podcast we explore how digitalization, electrification and real world demonstrations are shaping Europe's energy transition.
I'm joined by Hugo morais from the INESC ID cluster representing three EU funded projects shift to DC U2 demo as well as EV4EU, a project that will end in May 2026.
Together the projects offer a practical view on how smart buildings, electric mobility and data driven solutions are moving from pilots to real life deployment and what still stands in the way.
Hugo, thank you very much for being here with me today. And to start, could you briefly introduce the cluster and explain how the three projects connect?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Yes, the projects are different in nature because other seeing different aspects of the energy transition, but they have a common vision that is exactly this contribution to the electrification of the society. In one side that is a key aspect for for the energy transition, but also other aspects is to improve the flexibility and controllability of the assets that we have. The focus of the projects are different because the shift to DC is centered in the development of DC solutions to be adopted in different applications such data centers or buildings.
U2 demo is centering the solutions for energy communities and even for you in the solutions for promoting massive adoption of electrical vehicles. But globally, all of these assets and all of these contributions will be reflected in higher controllability, higher visibility and observability of the resources and mainly the contribution for the flexibility of the system that is a key aspect for the future in the power systems and in the energy sector in general.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: I think that across the three projects, digitalization is a key theme.
So what are the main tools or platforms you are developing?
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Yes, the platforms are very different because requirements are also different in the projects. In the Shift to DC project we have one important contribution in terms of hardware solution because DC is not mature sector like we have in alternative current and this means that one important part is in the hardware solutions. Nevertheless, we have several tools that are being developed such as the new tool for design installations, the new EMS to control the system that is different from the normal systems used in the AC Solutions. In the YouTubeMo we are developing open source tools and open source platforms exactly to promote the democratization and the adoption of the technologies and in ev4ua. We are developing also multiple applications considering the needs of different stakeholders, such as the operators of public charging stations, but also the systems that we have in houses or buildings or in companies. And in fact we have some common layers that are used in all the applications, but afterwards is case by case, depending on the needs that we have for the application.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: Okay, so yes, digitalization is quite an important, let's say, theme in all three projects. But I would like to see a little bit discuss each and every one of them individually.
For example, Shift to DC looks at decarbonizing buildings and districts.
What solutions are proving most effective so far?
[00:04:47] Speaker B: In fact, in Shift2DC project we have four applications for demonstrators addressing specific points where the DC can be applied and can be interesting in the point of view of efficiency and the point of view of cost.
We have effectively the application in buildings, mainly because we have a lot of resources that are used in buildings like the charging stations, the batteries, the PVs and most of those that we have in the buildings are already in dc, but they are connected through the AC grids. But we have also some other important applications such as in the data centers. And in data centers is important because all servers work in the. In D.C.
we have applications in the industry, mainly in the automotive industry and in the components industry because we have a lot of machines that are robots and that are automatic machines that most of them also works in the ndc. And finally we have applications in ports where we have new targets related with carbonization of maritime sector, including the connection of the ships to land. When they are docked, they should be connected. This means that the DC solutions can also be an option in the. In the ports.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: The ports are proving quite, quite the topic for the European Union lately. But let's go to YouTube demo which focuses on real life demonstrations. What has surprised you most when moving from theory to implementation?
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah, the most challenge that you to demo project focus in energy communities.
And the main challenge here is in terms of integration. We have two. One is the integration and another one is regulation. Regarding the integration is because we are talking in very heterogeneous systems that need to communicate in the same semantic to understand each other.
And when we start to this phase of integrating everything is the key challenge comparing it with the theory and practice. But afterwards we have another point that is the regulation. And the problem of regulation is that the tools that we are developing in theory, when you go to practice, we have in each country different regulation and the tools should be adjusted to be effective according to regulations that we have and this regulation can be different in terms of governance of the community, in terms of the sharing coefficients, I.e. that are allowed in different countries, the type of flexibility services that we can provide. And this creates always the need of one extra development to be completely aligned with the regulation of the different countries.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: You know, Hugo, I've heard that from many other projects that they have to adjust in every country according to the different rules and regulations, regulations that apply to. To every country.
Is this one of the, let's say, most difficult issues projects face when it comes to demonstrations and pilots? Or it's something that it's easily solved like, or let me, let me phrase it this way, would let's say a unanimity in rules and regulations for all EU countries help a lot or it's a problem that can be tackled easily?
[00:08:44] Speaker B: The problem can be tackled, we can adjust the algorithms. The point is we always need the contribution of one expert, of one person that knows very well the algorithm. And to give you the example of this YouTubeMo project, the goal is to make available open source tools. And the idea to make available open source tools is a person without a lot of expertise can pick the tool, understand inputs and outputs and use the tool.
But because regulation is different, we need to go to the core of the algorithms to change something. It's not a huge effort for the ones that knows the algorithm, but for the end users of the algorithm is something that can create barriers in their adoption.
Because here is really we are trying to give tools to allow the users, but also the persons to the installations and the managers of the community to move forward in their adoption.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. And having also representing also EV4EU, which is a product project that concludes soon. You are in a unique position to also tell us what the. The most, let's say important technical takeaways were from this, this project.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Regarding the the contributions of ev4u project, I think that one of the most important was the development of a prototype of bidirectional charging station using CCS technology. That is the one that all the cars have here in Europe.
But in fact was a huge challenge because in the beginning of the project this technology doesn't exist. It creates some uncertainties in the development of the project.
But finally we arrived to have a prototype where tested using this technology.
Afterwards we develop also solutions because it's something that mainly in big cities is becoming a huge blocking aspect for the development of electrical vehicles. Because in the condominiums, when we have one car, two cars, it is fine. We don't have problems. But when we have more people that lives in these condominiums, have electrical vehicles, we arrive to a point that we cannot install more charging stations in the garage, in the parking lots. And with the blob solution is likely to address this problem.
We also have something that I think that is very interesting, that we develop one open source tool to be used by charging point operators. This means to manage the public charging stations, that is open source, that is something that is already running and puts their algorithms, their intelligence, their services without a lot of effort. Because the core functions of interoperability of communications with charging stations are already implemented. And this is implemented considering the standards for normal charging for smart charging, but also considering the standards for bi directional charging.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Staying with a EV for eu. How close are we today to using electric vehicles as real flexibility assets for the grid? Because I hear more and more governments trying to replace or urging the citizens to replace their normal, let's say fossil fuel cars for electric vehicles. But do we have the infrastructure and how, as I said, when will they become true flexibility assets for the grid?
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Yes, regarding the infrastructure is something that governments are investing and they are aware that to move to and contribute to this transition to the electrical mobility, we must invest in the charging infrastructure. And I think that in different countries, the governments are imposing some rules and some laws to promote this deployment of the charging infrastructure. Regarding the flexibility, we have here two different types of flexibility. We have flexibility that can be provided by the smart charging saying that for the modulation and control of the periods of charging of the vehicles. And this is a technology that is ready.
But we need to teach the people to connect the cars, even if they don't need to connect car. This means that normally the cars nowadays have one autonomy to do 300km, 500km and people do 50km a day. This means that do not need to charge every day. But if the people have in their houses, in their buildings, the possibility to connect the car, they should connect the car because we'll enable the flexible charging of these vehicles. This is one point regarding the whole flexibility that can be provided by bi directional charging is a little bit more complicated. First, because we don't have yet the the technology is not fully in the market. As I mentioned, we develop a first prototype. This should happen during this year or beginning of next year.
But also we need some regulation and some business models.
Because if we are discharging the vehicle, it is important to understand how we will be remunerated for this energy that we are injecting in the Grid. The second point that is really important, we need to provide confidence to the users regarding the degradation of the battery because in fact we are doing some cycles in the battery because we are charging and discharging and the users need to have some guarantees that we will not lose the life cycle or lifetime of the battery. We will not lose the guarantees that we have from the manufacturers. And and this is something that we should work to discuss with OEMS to provide the package saying, okay, until this level you can provide services with guarantees without degrading the battery. And I think these are key points that should be addressed.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: I would like to go back a little bit to the digitalization part that we discussed. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but all three projects rely heavily on data. How do you deal with interoperability between different systems and actors? Because this is quite an important, let's say, topic for everyone in Europe.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Yes, I completely agree with you. This is a huge challenge that we have in the projects. Normally we have some of the partners that are members of standardization bodies that are trying with the last requirements and last standards that are being proposed in these standardization bodies, but also profit of the experience that we have in the projects to show what can be the next steps, what is missing in the standards to have this fully interoperability.
We also try to follow existing ontologies like for example Sahev is one ontology that for example we are using in new to demo project to be aligned with what the others are doing to have interoperability with other projects, other services
[00:16:49] Speaker A: and other products now linked to that. How are you addressing cyber security concerns in increasingly digital energy systems?
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Regarding cyber security, we address these mainly in the ev4u project in ship to DC and U to them are not a topic that we are addressing because we are looking more in the other aspects.
But here in fact, depending on the standard or the version of the standards that we are using, in some cases the new standards already have a layer of cybersecurity of encryption that assured some cybersecurity aspects in standard itself.
And this is one of the approach that we are trying to contribute is not to create new layers that assure the cybersecurity, but involve some aspects in the designing of the standards that already integrate some cybersecurity.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Understood. I would like to discuss a little bit about the users, the consumers, the citizens.
Now, from a user perspective, how are citizens engaging with these solutions? Are they ready to take a more active role? Because we are discussing more and more about citizens engagement, the end consumer, etcetera or the end user in this case. But how easy or how difficult is it to engage them?
[00:18:30] Speaker B: I think it depends on the country. But normally the people are very engaged in these new technologies.
Mainly because we have two important aspects. One, the people understand that we are contributing to a better society to have more green technologies, to have more local share of energy, for example, in Utodemo.
And the people are engaged in these aspects. Sometimes of course, we also provide the benefits, the cost benefits, because normally if we have a better management, the people will pay less for the energy and will create some incentives.
But normal people are engaged to participate in the projects, to adopt the solutions. We have also something that is really important, that now we are trying to involve the people from the beginning of the projects, asking what people expect from the tools, what people want to see in the applications, what are the main concerns that the people have. For example, as I mentioned in bidirectional charging, this return of experience, saying that, oh, what will be the degradation of the battery? What happens if I arrive a certain time, I don't have energy. And we need to explain how system will work. But at the same time we will try to incorporate these concerns in the development of the algorithms and in the development of the interfaces.
This means when the people are involved since the beginning of the project, since the design phase of the project, afterwards the adoption will be much more easy because the people will recognize that some aspects that they are providing are enveloped in the development that we are doing.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Yes, but this however, has to do with the already existent, let's say, energy community. So people that are already, already kind of involved. Do you think that there will be a time where this will have things like that in general, not only for the projects you represent, we'll have a faster, bigger implementation where people, citizens in EU will be involved that much with their energy consumption and flexibility and everything.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: I think this is a kind of movement. And in some countries we saw that the people voluntarily goes to the communities and be part of communities. And why? Because they know that the neighbors are part of this community. And if the people are happy to be part of the community, they will talk with, with family or say, no, this is really good and we can have benefits, we can promote social aspects. For example, last week we exchanged with some partners in in Italy and they mentioned those people now are joining the community because they are saying that we are building new gardens, new places to the kids and so on. And this is based in the sharing because we retain some money that is shared between the community, but people Are the community manager in this case are investing really social aspects. And that is a common benefit for everything.
One important aspect that we have, for example, for this discussion is in that case we did exactly this question. And what they mentioned is we start having the municipality giving the example. And the municipality was one of the promoters of this initiative. And afterwards the citizens joined the initiative because saw some benefits.
One important part that is also critical is the people should be present and should communicate with with people. Because afterwards we have some companies that are looking in these initiatives as a business and are trying to sell a business. And this should be a little bit different because it should be something that should start from the community, of course, engaged companies because companies have different the technologies and the knowledge to implement things.
But afterwards the citizens should move and should consider this engagement in the energy community in this case.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that is very spot on. And what you described mouth to mouth promotion basically is actually one is still no matter how digital we become, one of the best tools out there.
Do you however feel that current EU frameworks. I want to go and circle a little bit back to the EU Commission and the EU rules and regulations on digitalization. So the frameworks on digitalization and energy data are keeping pace with innovation on the ground.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: I think this is really important because your frameworks and the digitalization is the basis to enable is one enabler for these technologies. Without digitalization we do not have control. And if you don't have control, you don't have intelligence. And if you don't have intelligence, you don't have benefits. And because of this, this digitalization is critical. In fact, again, it's the first enabler to allow this both the communities, the DC grids or the electrical mobility. Because picking this example of electrical mobility, if you don't have digitalization, we'll plug your car.
The car will be charged, but will not have a flexible load. In fact, we will increase a lot the consumption in some periods. That is the periods where the people arrive to home and will connect the car and create a lot of problems and will create more problems than solve the solutions. And if we have this digitalization, in fact we can see the cars or we can see the communities not as a normal consumer, but is some active consumer that will contribute for the stability of the system and for stability of the energy sector in general.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: I would like to go to the business models a little bit to the energy market because it makes sense what you say about the digitalization. But these solutions depend on new business models.
And I'm wondering If the current market design is flexible enough to support them
[00:25:38] Speaker B: in most of the case, no.
In fact, I think this is a huge challenge because nowadays the market design is not prepared for this new reality. And we can see this easily.
If you look in the prices, market prices during this week we have prices of minus €300 per per megawatt. And that is something that we should avoid. We should avoid because we need the companies to invest in technologies to make profits from these, these investments. And for this we need more flexibility in systems. In fact, we need to adjust the consumption to the periods where we have more production. We need to have more storage technologies and storage systems in the system.
Exactly. To allow the absorption of this production when we have the production available and afterwards use this production in periods that we need to supply the consumption. But nowadays the markets are not designed for this. And in fact we are looking a kind of cannibalization of the renewals. Because when we have a PV system producing, we have most of PV systems are producing at same times the prices go down. And the question is if, if I'm one investor, how, why I will invest in more technologies if when I'm producing, prices are negative and I will not have money for this?
And we have the other side, that is in the point of view of the users or the aggregators and the entities that aggregate the users, how they can provide flexibility.
The minimum amount to provide this flexibility is 1 megawatt. This is very complicated to integrate the small players in this type of markets. Now in some countries this is changing. Now we have, in some countries limit is already 100 kilowatts. For example, here in Portugal we are testing a market and limit is 10 kilowatts. And this allow that for example, a community or a parking lot can already provide some services. But I think this aspect of the market is really important to enable these business models and the integration of these new technologies in the markets.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: That is quite a positive, let's say, reflection on the matter. I'm a little bit more skeptical, but I'm hoping that you are right and I'm not. So let's, let's see how this will unfold and let's circle a little bit back. We said that the YouTube demo focuses on real life demonstrations earlier and I've been meaning to ask you since we discussed this, what is your aspect on let's say, the future of EU funding? Should the EU commission continue funding their funding, continue focusing on pilots, or shift a little bit more towards large scale deployment? Because I see most of the pilots are focusing.
Sorry, most of the projects are focusing on pilots like you can't have huge large scale deployment that easily. But what do you think the future should be? Is it enough with the pilots or.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: I understand your point and I think the commission are already shifting for this trend to have large scale pilots. Because in the calls 2026, 2027, we have some of the calls that are already looking for these large scale pilots. I think that it depends a lot of maturity of the technologies. In some aspects these large scale pilots, like for example, in mobility make a lot of sense because it's a technology that is already ready. Of course we need to improve a couple of things.
But sometimes these large scale pilots is important to frame what is important and what is important is if we test first in the pilot and say, okay, this works in this pilot now we will replicate this, for example, in three cities or in 10 cities, the same thing. And to show that no this is really effective independently if we are in Portugal or in Denmark or in Greece, if there is a city with 1 million people or with 100,000.
And this is something that we should demonstrate. We can only go to this level where we already have enough knowledge in the pilots. This means that we should have both at same time. For some technologies that are not in the. In level of this of maturity or adoption by the. By the users, we should keep with pilots, with Rubus pilots where we can test different solutions and different applications of these solutions and afterwards move to these large scale pilots.
[00:31:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes total sense. Actually, we are approaching the end of our discussion and I would like to ask you as a final question. Based on your experience across this program projects, what is the one thing that you would change technical or regulatory that could make the biggest difference in your opinion in accelerating the situation?
[00:31:33] Speaker B: I think that we have two aspects that are important.
One is the harmonization between European countries in the legislation and the rules that they are adopting. I know that it's difficult because the. The.
The energy systems are of different countries have historical differences and is very complicated to do this harmonization. But it's something that in using like for example, the energy communities will be very, very welcome. The same for the dc.
This is something that is appearing that we don't have yet the fully legislation or standardization about the dc. And if you can harmonize the development of DC between the countries will be perfect. And another aspect that I think that is critical that we talk a lot about interoperability and standardization.
But most of the problems became from duplication of the existing standards and interpretation of the existing standards. And I think that is a gap.
When we publish one standard afterwards, each entity will use different parts of the standard. This means that I can be compliant with Standard A and the other company will be compliant with same standard. But we cannot talk between us. And this creates a lot of difficulties. And maybe create here a kind of certification in the use of these standards is something that will be very welcome to have really interoperable systems.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: Thank you so much for being here with me today and for this interesting conversation.
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I'm Areti Daradimo. Thank you for joining us.
