Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome to the list, a podcast series from enliven friends focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Daradin. I am the editor of the list and your host.
The building sector accounts for 36% of the EU's greenhouse gas emissions and 42% of the energy consumed. These statistics come from the European Commission, and they indicate that buildings are the single largest energy consumer in the EU, as well as one of the largest carbon dioxide emitters. As underscored by the revised energy performance of Buildings Directive, there is a pressing need to overhaul existing practices and standards. Mandating that all new buildings in the EU be zero emission by 2030, with new public buildings achieving this status even earlier by 2027 represents a significant step forward. Additionally, the directive sets forth minimum EU level efficiency standards aimed at catalyzing the renovation of underperforming buildings. Going green seems like a no brainer, yet the path to zero emission buildings is fraught with complexities from technological hurdles to financial constraints. Implementing sustainable technologies and meeting stringent efficiency standards often entails substantial upfront costs, posing a barrier for many developers and homeowners, especially those in low income communities. Furthermore, achieving widespread adoption of green building practices necessitates overcoming ingrained habits and entrenched resistance to change. Convincing stakeholders accustomed to conventional methods to embrace sustainable alternatives demands robust advocacy and education efforts.
On top of that, retrofitting existing buildings to meet zero emission targets presents logistical and operational challenges. Coordinating renovation projects across diverse urban landscapes while ensuring minimal disruption to occupants requires meticulous planning and organization. To shed more light on both the benefits and the challenges of green buildings and neighborhood development, I reach out to Gerhardt strike heat Gerhard was presenting the pro bono project at the EU project zone at Elite Europe 2023. The project zone is an annual opportunity for european projects to meet up and share lessons in person. Pro bono paints a compelling picture of the positive impact green buildings and neighborhoods can have on our planet. By emphasizing efficient planning, technology integration, and the incorporation of renewable energy sources like solar and geothermal, these initiatives hold the potential to significantly reduce energy consumption and carbon emissions. Moreover, the integration of green spaces within neighborhoods not only enhances physical activity, but also promotes mental well being, fostering stronger and more resilient communities. However, as Gerhardt tells me, there are big challenges that must be overcome to realize the full potential of these initiatives.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: If we come to the question how we come immediately to construction technologies, to digitalization, but also for renewables, for sure. But the first question is to know where you want to go to what we are aiming for. And therefore, this is an aspect where, for sure, not 100% renewable is the goal. The goal is to have a climate neutral energy supply which is secure and affordable. And therefore, if renewables are providing that, that's perfect. And this will be the solution for sure. However, the goal must be first set. And I think the challenge is in all these questions we are talking about, is to bring all these different aspects together, because we have to balance the different aspects, the different challenges which are related to there, the costs, for example, the resources used, and also the affordability, the social aspect. So this is such a complex issue that we first have to define the goal and then find the ways how to achieve this goal and then balance out the different approaches to achieve these goals.
[00:04:46] Speaker C: I would like to stand a little bit longer on what you said about the challenges. There are a lot of challenges when someone is trying to turn green in multiple facets. But let's stick to the pro bono definition and project as an example.
High construction costs, you already mentioned them, limited access to capital, social attitude, information gaps, lack of experience, inadequate incentives. And this is something that I take from the pro bono documents that I have read. How does pro bono tackle those?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: It's not so simple and we do not have a clear answer to that. So you cannot expect that one project can solve all these problems where the entire sector is facing. However, the first step is to be aware of the different challenges which we are facing and take that into account. What we are doing is we are trying to, and we are convinced this is necessary. It is necessary to have innovations in technology in order to overcome all these challenges. So first of all, we are identifying innovations, for example, green facades, photovoltaic facades, or digital solutions, or energy efficient way of using geothermal energy, something like that. So on the one hand side, we are working on innovations, we are demonstrating them in the living labs. And it's very important. This is another aspect of this people centric approach. It is important to define and work on the technologies and innovations, but also work together with people, how they can accept that, how they can integrate that, how they can understand that and then learn how these innovations can brought into the market. And so demonstration is important, innovation is important, demonstration important. Testing the technology, but also working with people in the living lab concept in order to understand if they can accept that, what are their barriers, in order to integrate it in their life and in earwait.
That's what we are trying to do everything together and find a way to integrate all these aspects.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: What were the biggest challenges that you faced when it comes to social attitudes?
I know that you have like six pilots, if I'm not mistaken. Was there in one of the countries that you have the pilots, was there, I don't know, a neighborhood or a community that said, no, I don't want to put a smart meter. No, I don't want to have the digital twin. Was there something like that?
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Well, honestly speaking, we are not in the phase yet where we are already roll out. And so the way of working with people is not or only it's not.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: Direct, let's say right now.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it is not direct in regards to talking with the user of this or the people living in an environment or in a living labs. However, it is also very important, this is our experience from different projects, is working together with the stakeholders which are implementing the solutions. And we are working together for sure with the investors, with the local planners, with the urban planners, with the owners of the buildings, and also some of the users for sure, and to identify with them solutions which they are on the one hand side can use, that they are interested in, which they can finance, et cetera. This is really the challenge. So the first phase is the planning phase, the planning of investments to identify technologies and to talk with the user. Finally, which are living there and using the technology is only the second phase in which we not approached yet.
But coming back to this point, I think that's very important. If you talk about social aspects and social dimension of projects, we are often talking about how the user will finally use that. However, it's also, I would say, at least also important and equal important to talk about how can we inform the planners, the technicians, which are there, the craftsmen, the investors, et cetera, because they have to design the system. They have to decide what to build, what they will test, who is investing. They take over the risk, for example, to use a new technology, because finally they have to provide the service to the people, et cetera. And so this is what we are facing and what we are working with.
And we are facing a lot of challenges there because every project has a lot of influence from outside the financing crisis and immobility sector at the moment, et cetera, et cetera. So the readiness of the people, the knowledge of the people, and there are so many different technologies. And so they have to look forward to find a way to assess technologies, for example, is a challenge. And also there, the main challenge is that renewables are there, smart technologies are there, digitalization, all these others. The main challenge is not to provide completely new technologies to the user because they know about renewables, they know about energy efficiency, infurbishment of buildings, et cetera. Digital aspect so the challenge is rather for them to assess the different technology and find out what, under their conditions, locally, due to their weather conditions, due to their financing conditions, due to their acceptance of people, what is the best solution for them, what is the best mix of solutions?
And they need support in that because there is the information gap, because people had heard about, and there are different experts advising, et cetera. And so what we are working on is to discuss together what is the best solution for a specific situation on site, and we are in that process. I don't have the answer yet how to do that, but we are working on this kind of approach and hopefully we will finally give a report and some recommendations how to improve this process of assessing technologies.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Assessing solutions a solution could be to create a digital twin of the neighborhood. But for someone unfamiliar with the concept, it can initially seem like an abstract or complex idea. Its importance lies in its ability to simulate and analyze various scenarios, providing valuable insights that inform decision making processes. During the development phase of a project, experts utilize digital twins to conduct simulations and test different solutions in the context of building a neighborhood planning, this means assessing the most efficient and effective systems for construction, energy consumption, mobility, and social dynamics. By integrating a new technology or solution into the digital twin, experts can evaluate its impact and efficiency before implementing it in the real world. This predictive capability enables planners to optimize integrated solutions, considering diverse factors such as social interaction, energy efficiency, and transportation services.
Essentially, the digital twin serves as a sandbox for exploring and refining ideas, ensuring that the final built environment meets diverse needs and challenges. Furthermore, the utility of a digital twin extends beyond the planning phase into the operation phase. Once developed, the digital twin can be used to continuously optimize processes such as temperature control in buildings, lighting efficiency, and transportation services.
Additionally, it can support social activities, facilitate community engagement, and enhance educational initiatives within the neighborhood. The initial investment in building a digital twin can potentially be substantial, but its long term efficiency and accessibility prove invaluable. Ultimately, the goal is to establish a digital twin that serves as a comprehensive and efficient tool for all stakeholders involved in building and managing sustainable communities. But who controls it?
[00:13:22] Speaker C: The neighborhood will always need a technician or an expert to be the puppet master, let's say. And maybe that sounds a little bit negative. I do not mean it in a negative way. I mean a person that will handle the system.
Or will there be a time where the neighborhood itself, the citizen herself will be able to use it without the help of an expert, because this changes a little bit the dynamics and the ethics in the whole situation.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Absolutely, and I think your question is absolutely correct and relevant. And I must say, from my point of view, we don't know exactly how this will further develop, because on the one hand side we see the benefit of digitalization and all the services, but on the other hand side, we see also that the effort, but also the challenges in regards to, or the risk in regards to control everything, et cetera.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: Cybersecurity even, and who is doing that.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: So first of all, if you do it, see it in a positive way, still, you have to answer the question, who is setting that up, who is operating that and who is financing that? And we don't have solutions there, because all the solutions, not only the digital solution, but also the neighborhood, construction, et cetera, energy system.
We are facing in all this developments, the challenge that we are looking for somebody who is integrating everything, but these people are not there, because we have the different people, the utility and the city, et cetera, and the project developer, they are doing their thing, but there is not one integrator. So they have to work together in a smart way to find the best way together. But they are not used to look into all these other aspects as well. And so what we see in this project is that it would be very helpful if there is somebody nominated to coordinate everything, but these people is not there.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: But who is going to nominate this person? Would that be the European Commission? Would it be a national authority?
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Both, actually, I don't know, but I know from projects that they are suffering on this aspect, because there is not a coordinator. But even if you are, you can discuss that issue very deeply.
Even if you have somebody who is able to do that, who has the acceptance, who has the knowledge, et cetera, et cetera, because he must be an interdisciplinary expert, et cetera. Even you have them. And the question is who is financing that and how to integrate it, and how can he get amended to do that? And so this is on the real world, on the physical world, and the same is happening on the digital world. In the digital world, we do have the planning of the construction sector, with the buildings, and you have the planning of the energy sector, et cetera. And the digital wing is bringing everything together. But in order to bring that together, you have to define the interfaces. But finally, you can have only a good overall system if there is somebody who is taking care about the overall integrated solution. But there is nobody who is doing that. It could be that the big companies, which are obviously in the digital sector there, they have some ideas and they could offer that. The question is, do we want that? And are they able to provide solutions which are fitting to the local needs? These are the challenges which are facing. I don't have an answer yet.
[00:17:08] Speaker C: Do you have, let's say, an idea or a first impression on who that organizer, let's say, should be? Should it be the utility, should it be local authority? Should it be european authority? Should it be a tech company?
[00:17:23] Speaker B: First of all, it must be, from my point of view, it must be a public body, must play a different role in the future. Let me say in this way, the projects which we are doing with cities and project developers shows that the cities and urban planners up to now looked only on the streets and the building, how they are looking like, and the design. But then they stopped. And now in the projects which we are developing, it becomes clear that representatives of the city has to accompany the process of setting up climate neutral district until the end of the implementation. And so they learn that they have to set up capacity, or build up capacities, on the one hand side by personal staff, but also by competences, in order to coordinate. And therefore the public body is necessary, because only they have on the one hand side, the trust of the people, that this is in the interest of the people. So the acceptance, and they have also access to the legal procedures which are involved there. So to provide an urban planning process, et cetera, to speak to the utilities and organize all these legal aspects, the city must be involved. So this is one thing, but we can look into that more in detail. For example, the energy field in the energy sector, up to now, we have a huge, very separate silos. If you look on the electricity part and the heating part, but we see now we need integrated solutions of electricity, heating, cooling and mobility. And so utilities, local utilities and big utilities are now developing towards integrated energy solutions. They are only on the way. So if you look to local conditions, often they are separate. But this is one direction on the technical part, where at least the utilities trying to offer integrated solutions for all aspects of the energy sector, but still the digital part is not integrated that. So they're also looking into that. But the question also there is, do they have the competence, and are other new startups and new companies are offering a better solution? So this is on the way. I don't know what will be the result.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: The various challenges that the pilots of project pro bono faced demonstrate that this is not an easy endeavor. If within the microcosm of a pilot, one faces that many important issues, then what will happen when we try to apply these technologies and solutions to real life neighborhoods in big cities like Paris or Brussels? Are green buildings and neighborhoods possible to achieve?
[00:20:23] Speaker B: What can we learn from the different living labs? First of all, we have to admit that local solutions are necessary. We do have the technologies, but they must be adapted to the local situation, the density of living, the climate, the ability of the people to afford the solutions, et cetera, the readiness of the people, all the existing infrastructure, et cetera, et cetera. So it must be adapted. And you would say, well, if you look to all the cities, not only to the big one which you mentioned, but to all the small cities, there is huge variety of solutions. On the other hand side, we also know that the number of energy sources are very limited. We have solar, we have wind, we have sometimes geothermal, et cetera. The technical solutions are limited. And we know the general approach. So this means we do not have thousands and millions of solutions which are completely different, but we do have packages. I would, let me say there are packages which has to be adapted to the specific local environment. And I expect that there will be patterns, patterns of solutions which can be easily adapted. This means that we have not one blueprint for every city, but we have a set of solutions which can be easily adapted by the people on site.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Sorry, but is it solutions or quick fixes?
[00:21:59] Speaker B: I leave that open. Okay, so we will see what does this mean in practice. But I would recommend to start with solutions, because people have to understand what they want to aim for and what is the package and what is the system and the general approach to a solution to answer these challenges. And having said that, what we need is the competence of the local level to have a good understanding on their specific conditions and learn how to make use of that general approaches, the general solutions or patterns or packages which are offered, and our project and all these other projects which are ongoing, they are, on the one hand side, these living leg projects are so important because this is the place where these theoretical available solutions, theoretical available solutions are really tested. And they must be tested in a real environment, because the complexity of the influencing factor are so big. So you cannot test it in a laboratory, in an institute or so you have to go in reality to get a real feedback. And what is very important is now that there is in this living lab project also a research part, analyzing the reaction and analyzing the results, and hopefully provide recommendations out of that, of that experience which can be used in other living labs as well. And so therefore, I think it's absolutely necessary to do that living labs projects, but not with the goal to say this is the best solution, do it everywhere. But in order to understand what is the functionality, what are the success factors and what is the pattern which works, and how can this pattern or the solution be applied and this learning must be transferred.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: I wanted to leave the best for last. So now is the time to talk money. Technologists and experts are good, but without the appropriate funding, nothing can move forward.
So I asked Gerhardt how we are doing in that sector.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Money is always a problem, and especially in our world.
The good thing is that if you look to renewables, we have had very tough times over the last decade to build up the technologies and the solutions. But in the meantime, with renewables have a secure supply. We cannot only generate onsite and we have not the environmentally friendliness. But in meantime, we are also competitive in price, or we are cheaper. And this means that at least the renewable energy sources and the supply is the cheaper solution to the supply of energy, as from fossil fuels, for example. And therefore, this is not issue. However, to build up the energy system, the batteries and the new infrastructure, and the smart grids and the EV charging system solutions, et cetera, these are additional investments and we have to build up there. So therefore we need the support there. We need a concept for rollout. But I must say, we do have a technological transformation in so many fields around the world, in the business and in all parts of the world. This is one part which is also very important for the construction sector. It is for sure also a challenge. It's always a balance between what I can afford and we also have to take into account also this is mentioned in pro bono. We have to provide affordable solutions for the people. Finally, so it's not only energy, it's also living costs, et cetera. But there are smart solutions there. The hope is that the digital solutions and all the other aspects will help to increase the efficiency, the efficiency of construction and the efficiency of operation, and therefore limit the cost.
This is not proven yet. Not every technology which is implemented is more efficient. And this finally reduced the cost. But this must be our goal, and at least it is one aspect we take into account in our project.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Gerhard and project pro bono paint a promising picture of green buildings and neighborhoods, emphasizing both their environmental benefits and potential challenges.
On the positive side, these initiatives stand to significantly reduce energy consumption through efficient planning, technology integration and renewable energy sources like solar and geothermal. This translates to lower carbon emissions and improved air quality, contributing to a healthier planet. Additionally, green spaces within the neighborhoods promote physical activity and mental well being, fostering stronger communities however, pro bono recognizes several hurdles on the path to widespread adoption. One major challenge lies in affordability.
Implementing innovative solutions comes with an initial cost, and ensuring that such projects remain accessible to diverse communities requires strategic planning and potentially, financial incentives. Furthermore, gaining social acceptance for new technologies and infrastructure changes is crucial, addressing concerns about aesthetics, privacy, and potential disruptions. Another challenge lies in effectively integrating digital solutions with existing infrastructure. While platforms like digital twins hold immense potential for monitoring and managing energy use, seamlessly merging them with the current systems demands careful planning and collaboration. Additionally, identifying the most suitable solutions for its specific local context presents a complex task requiring careful consideration of environmental, social and economic factors.
Despite these challenges, pro bono highlights the positive impact achievable through collaboration and shared knowledge. By supporting living labs, analyzing their demonstrations, and developing certification schemes, the project paves the way for widespread green building adoption. Importantly, pro bono emphasizes the need for public bodies to play a key role in coordinating and financing these initiatives, ensuring their accessibility and long term success.
Ultimately, pro Bono reminds us that the transition to greener buildings and neighborhoods requires a nuanced approach. Balancing environmental benefits with affordability, social acceptance and technological integration holds the key to creating sustainable and thriving communities for the future. Pro Bono is just one of thousands of EU projects solving problems in the energy transition. The project zone on Www.
Enlit World is a dedicated space for these projects. If you are part of a european project or are interested in getting involved in one, join us there.
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