Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects podcast, a podcast series from Enlighten France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Areti Daradimo, I am the editor of the EU Energy Projects podcast and your host.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Energy communities are.
[00:00:37] Speaker C: Playing a growing role in Europe's energy transition. The renegetic project was conceived to demonstrate the viability of so called urban energy islands and aims to empower renewable energy communities to inhabit these islands, fueling their involvement in processes traditionally hidden for local communities such as heat supply.
The goal of the project is to demonstrate the improvement of efficiency and energy autocad. It also focuses on community involvement and the social economic viability of three very different urban energy islands in Belgium, Poland and Italy. My name is Ross Hastie. I'm your co host today and I travel to Milan to speak to Roberto Dellotto, who is a professor of urban planning at the University of Pavia and leads one of Renerjetik's project work packages in Sagrati, a municipality in Milan.
We explore the project's transdisciplinary approach to achieve their goals and how their learnings can be exported.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Roberto, welcome to the EU Energy Projects podcast. For those who are not familiar with the project, give us an overview of its main aims and its partners.
[00:01:49] Speaker D: Thank you very much. Im very glad to be here and to have the opportunity to explain some topics regarding energetic. Energetic started in 2020 after a big time of discussion among the partners about the main goals of the project according to the european directives, so according to the legislative framework that is necessary for every country and every city in Europe to be akin with the creation of the energy communities. And we tried to define this new understanding about the energy community considering energy island. So energy islands are considered as energy communities in a specific part of land, so in a defined part of land. And the topic of energetic is to build a knowledge model about the energy island, then a technical model than a business model and a social engagement model. So that these three main topics were the key points that carry us all the partners to participate to the project. The partners were selected mainly for their expertise. And in the specific case of Segrate, we were selected as a pilot because Segrate and the hospital OSr are partners as an actual energy community that must be developed in according to the european laws, so that the three pilots were selected in order to represent different kind of european contexts.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: So we're going to focus on the italian pilot, but give us a quick overview of what those other two are.
[00:03:26] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. The pilot are very different from each other, both from the physical point of view, from the geographical point of view, also from the geographical provenance. The case of Belgium is a renovation site. So it is ex dock sites that is being renovated as residential and tertiary place that have to plan what is the next future for energy planning. The polish pilot is a campus, a university campus. So it has a very different governance from the normal city point of view or neighborhood point of view, because it is mainly top down, but with the students that interact a lot with the governance of the university and segrate. And OSR pilot is the one that is closer to the 80% of the existing Europe, that is, cities that already exist, cities that already have some rules, some ways of governing, and some other pilot. So that the differences among the pilot is really one of the key point and one of the strong parts of reenergetic.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: I'm referring to the article that we published with you on inlet world, and it speaks about a transdisciplinary approach. It's all about optimizing energy use, but I'm seeing a lot of things are happening in this project. We're talking about heat supply optimization, local waste, heat optimization, heat demand response, electric vehicle demand response, electricity supply optimization, electricity demand response, interactive GUI for energy managers and end users, social campaigning.
That's a lot of work. How many people are involved in your project?
[00:05:15] Speaker D: Well, we are many, many partners, and every partnership means that a lot of people must agree in some goals and must agree also in the methodology to reach some goals. I cannot tell you exactly how many people really participated in the past, is participating, and will participate until the end of the project that is on last October 2024. I configure like between 71 hundred people involved directly in the project. And the topic is that the multidisciplinary carried to transdisciplinary in order to create new knowledge and new connections among the different fields that you were citing. The goal is to create a software that is able to face a very complicated and complex situation with many sources of energy, and to optimize everything to give to the final users information in order to let them modify their behavior, to optimize all the sources of energy and the usage of energy, so that this transdisciplinary project is fully interrelated with the goals of rejection.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: Did you know that Enlit has another podcast? The Energy Transitions podcast is a broad ranging bi weekly podcast about the people accelerating the energy transition in Europe and beyond. You can find it on Spotify, Apple or wherever you enjoy your podcasts.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: I think it's fair to say that heat supply optimization is one of the the core focuses of the pilot here in Sagrat. Talk us through the nuts and bolts of the project and how it works. The hospital and the neighborhood.
[00:07:00] Speaker D: Yes, in segretes, starting from the late seventies and in the eighties, we saw the realization of some neighborhoods that had a unique heating system for all the buildings. We call it super condominium style of neighborhoods. Then lately the neighborhood Milano due in Segrete, connected with the hospital OSR that needs a lot of electrical energy and producing electrical energies. They produce heat so they can sell heat to the neighborhood milanoto so that the two very different parts of the city, one hospital, big hospital and one neighborhood, about 6000 inhabitants, so a big neighborhood are together an energy island for the heat.
The problem is at the moment to imagine and to figure which can be the future also involving the electrical energy and the electrical vehicle, or the opportunity to put EV somewhere in the public space or in the private space in order to make this former energy community to be updated with the new technologies and to the new opportunities that example or energetic is trying to put out.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Let's move on to some of the technical aspects. One of the first steps, or perhaps the first steps of creating a true energy island is energy autarky. It's not easy. You've got production, you've got distribution, you guards transmission, talk us through the steps of achieving true energy autarchy.
[00:08:33] Speaker D: The energy autarchy is one of the key points of energetic. And you are right, it is very difficult to reach a comprehensive energy autarchy because the monopoly in energy management, energy production and energy distribution in every european country is something that is still very strong. So we are not trying to fight the monopoly, we are trying to find also an alternative to this monopoly. And the idea is that every source of energy can be optimized if the final users or the people agrees in this autarchy model. Another topic is that people must agree for some reasons and everyone can have different goals. One could be save money, one could have a very green behavior, some other can be more oriented to some behaviors that they really like. So we have different reasons why people should belong to an energy island. So the topic is to understand exactly which could be the goals that move people to keep decision together. And from this point of view I think it is extremely interesting to analyze the nature of the community and the organizational and institutional aspects regarding the community.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: So, referring again to this article that we've gotten in the world building community acceptance is one of the key areas that the project is looking into.
What are the steps, in your opinion, for building community acceptance? And what are the hurdles that people see?
Trust, I imagine, is one of them.
[00:10:16] Speaker D: Yes, you're right. The social engagement activities that we carried on since three years in Segrete. Told us exactly this one. The first point is that people must believe that a possible energy future is up to date. And the second one is to trust each other, of course. And the third one is which kind of contract they are able to sign with all the participants of the community. So on the one hand, we have to describe this possible energetic future. In terms that everybody can understand. The second one, maybe oriented more to technicians and to people that is updated to all the legal novelties. Is that maybe they want to have practical answers. And re energetic is not working exactly in the practical answers. What is important for us is to understand how many people. And in which context they are able to understand practical issues. And the third point is to check the opportunity for the public to have a role. To guarantee that the agreements inside of the energy community. Can be valuable for long term. Because also they involve some investment at the very beginning of the creation of the energy community. So that the agreement must be strong. And also the public entities and the public bureau. Can have a practical role in this agreement among people.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Roberto, we were chatting before and you said, essentially, the energy community has started 40 years ago. So I'm sure at the beginning of this project you had some preconceived ideas about the engagement that you would have with the community. And also from a technical side. What were some of the learnings that were perhaps different from your expectations?
[00:12:09] Speaker D: Yeah, we expected more participation at the very beginning of the project. Because we were imagining that proposing something that could carry to the future. This actual energy community could be accepted. I mean, accepted, without any discussion. But then we understood that the actual organizational institutions. Are more complex than they seem to be on paper. So that we have some organization of the neighborhoods, of the people belonging in the neighborhood. Then there is another organization for the energy distribution. Then there is someone else that controls the agreement between the neighborhood and the OSR. So that we had a lot of people that have specific roles. According to the previous legal aspect. That were asking us things that were not exactly on the topic of energetics. So there was just a misalignment of goals and instruments. To reach what we were proposing in our research project. The other issue is that at the very beginning, we didn't know that the public role could be so strong. And of course, in this neighborhood we have some private spaces, we have public spaces. And so the idea was to work first on the public spaces, then to teach also to the private owners what could be the new road. But also these, I mean, the novelties also can make people be afraid of something they don't know. So maybe in the very next future, because the dissemination aspects of energetic will last for three years more than the end of the project, we need to work more with people to let them understand that we are not selling nothing except a possible better future beyond the pilot.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Replicating success for energy communities elsewhere is obviously one of the goals. What are some of those key lessons that you've learned?
[00:14:11] Speaker D: Yeah, we must consider that Europe is made of more than 80% of existing situations, maybe less than 15% is renovating, or there will be new things when you are renovating parts of the city. I am an urban planner, so I teach these issues. You can propose new rules when you have to enter with new rules in existing systems, of course, you have many constraints, and you have more constraints than acting in a new situation. That is why in the situation, I think that the best thing that we have to focus on in the next future is, first of all, optimizing all the technical aspects that we have. On the other hand, is to invest more on the social engagement of people in order to let them really understand, which is the key point, and that making some work now can leave better condition in the future. The second aspect that is important in the social engagement is also to consider not only the individual needs, but also the need of the neighbors. And it is quite complicated, because making people agree together with the neighborhood is one of the most difficult issues. We know every time we look in the condominium meetings that are the fighting places for excellence. It is something that we have to work on day by day, because novelties never arrive for a legal aspect that from one day and the other change the rules to make them effective. We need really to make people aware of the problems, aware of the difficulties, but especially aware of the positive elements that we are going to introduce with the energy autarky and with the energy islands.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: You mentioned the word rules and the rules within the energy communities, but there are also rules at an EU level and at a local, state and even regional level. In your opinion, are the necessary EU policies in place to enable energy communities to really flourish in the future?
[00:16:21] Speaker D: I think the biggest difficulty that the legal framework in Europe must overcome is the role of the monopolies. Because in every country we have big monopolies. And of course, they want to maintain privileged position in the energy production and energy distribution. So that at the moment, the european legal framework allows the creation of energy communities, but not force the creation of energy communities, and does not put any constraint to the monopolies. So that we have these two points, something that is growing up, but doesn't have the right road, and something else that is forcing to keep the monopolies advantage that they have. So I think that from this point of view, a decision must be taken.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: How does AI help achieve the goals of renegetic?
[00:17:16] Speaker D: In re energetic, we use AI for two main issues. The first one is the management of big quantity of data. So it is similar to the big data treatment, but oriented to specific goals of renergetics. So, treating data coming from different sources of energy, in example. And so one issue is the data treatment. The second one is the forecasting. And so it is the opportunity that AI gives to forecast some behaviors. And the energy providers, knowing what will happen in certain periods of time, and with certain percentage of certainty of the future, can better manage the production system according to the consumed that is forecasted.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: So, another recent happening in Italy, is in Turin. The G seven met. And one of the outcomes of the meeting was the emphasis on the promoting of renewable energy, and also energy communities. In the terms of turning users into prosumers. Is there enough political weight behind the promotion of energy communities?
[00:18:26] Speaker D: I think that the idea of the prosumer is the key point, because Europe really needs more autonomy in the energy production and in the energy management. We can not have a strong economy if we are not able to manage the energy that is at the basis of this economic development. So the idea of recognizing the prosumer as a relevant figure, I think it is one very first step. The second one is for the G seven, is that many countries would like to manage energy as the key point for also political decisions. And we know that at the moment, we have very strong issues regarding worldwide political aspects, considering also the wars that we have. So I can understand that it is not exactly the first topic in the agenda. But we cannot forget that without the recognition of the prosumers, it is not possible for Europe to be autonomous, because we don't have as many resources as other countries have.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Let's look into our crystal ball here, because these projects are on a relatively small scale. Are they replicable on a much larger scale in the future?
[00:19:43] Speaker D: Yes, it is one of the topics that we are trying to focus since the very beginning of the project. But in the last month, we are really pushing from this point of view, the first issue is that we really try to consider all the variables in the system and in the software that we are using, and also in the AI model or in the digital twin model, we are trying to consider all the variables that can have an energy community that can start from two years, three years, five years and so on. Also not depending on the very scale of the energy island or energy community. What we are working in the future is also to add, like in a wiki style, the instructions to follow our project and to use our products also in a practical way and from the scale. The issue is that the more you put people to join together, the more you create possible issues that can be conflict issues. The definition of which is the right scale of the energy community is really, at the moment, the existing energy communities are about 50 people, or 50 apartments, 20 apartments, and so on. The difficulty, and it wasn't a difficulty also here in this pilot, was that Mirano two has 6000 inhabitants. It means that you don't talk to the single person, you talk to the representative of the persons, that is, create an institutional barrier. So the topic is really interesting, but we don't know at the moment which is the right scale of the energy community. Maybe plenty of energy or small energy communities. More or less easier than having one single big energy community.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Roberto, what about you? Are you part of an energy community? Do you consider yourself a prosumer?
[00:21:32] Speaker D: Well, at the moment I'm not a prosumer, but I would like to be. And I'm not part of an energy community, or I am part of something that is similar to the energy community because I live in an apartment. So in my condominium, maybe we are an energy community in some way, because we have to decide, make some common decisions about the heating system that we have. But at the moment, the real role of the prosumer is how to produce energy and how to transform the work that you can make in an energy source. And the topic means invest something in infrastructures. So at the moment, it is not very clear what can be done at the small scale, at the apartment scale or condominium scale, in order to create an energy community. We know which is the maximum power that we can share, that is 1 mb, that we can share from the electrical point of view. But we don't know how to do this. And how much does it cost at the very beginning, that means in a condominium of 20 families, we don't know exactly which is the basic expense. And how can we save money during time, so we need practical examples.
Starting from the example of energetic, we will go deeper and deeper on the practical life. So by my side at the moment, I'm not a part of the energy community.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Roberto, thank you very much for joining us. It's been a fascinating conversation and look forward to learning more about renegetic.
[00:23:03] Speaker D: Thank you very much for your invitation and take a look every day at the website and our social channels. We are present everywhere, so follow us.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Youve been listening to the EU Energy Projects podcast, a podcast brought to you by enlit and friends. You can find us on Spotify, Apple and the Enlit World website. Just hit subscribe and you can access our other episodes too.
Thank you for joining us.
