Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast series from Enlida and France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Aretid Daradimu. I. I am the editor of the EU Energy Project podcast and your host.
Rescope is the European Federation of Citizen Energy Cooperatives. It gathers insights on how energy communities empower citizens, foster democratic governance and promote sustainability.
Together with Chris Pretos, Financing Policy Advisor of rescoup, we discuss the motivations, challenges and impacts of energy initiatives across Europe.
Hi Chris, and thank you so much for being here with me today.
Can you give us an overview of why community engagement and fair benefit sharing have become so central to renewable energy projects in Europe?
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Hi Eritie, good to be with you. Today, I think it's becoming quite clear that we're kind of in the crunch of the energy and the climate transition.
There is some backlash across Europe, across, say, Western Europe and North America.
But one would argue that the forces of the energy transition are unstoppable.
Market prices for solar, for wind, for storage are plunging every year. We see a substantial difference.
And we know also that the deadlines for meeting our climate targets are, are approaching. And it's not just, you know, let's say an abstract target. It's also the physical manifestation of the climate catastrophe.
I think it's okay for me to say that we're both Greek and you know, living in, in Athens or the broader, let's say the broader country of Greece in the summer is a, is a nightmare. It's the physical manifestation of how the world is changing around us year after year.
So I think it's quite crucial that we get the energy transition right.
And that means planting a whole lot more wind turbines and solar panels and batteries all around the place. But the key question is how do we do that in a way that doesn't ruin our ecosystems, but most crucially, how do we ensure fair benefit sharing?
So maybe just to sum up and go back to your question, really, we know that the energy transition is here, it's happening, it even needs to accelerate.
So the question is, how do we get the communities on board? How do we create locally owned renewable energy projects? How do we promote share offerings in big industrial parks? I think there's many different ways to do that. The key thing is social acceptance, which would also accelerate permitting. It would also accelerate project development.
So for me, yeah, these are all.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: Factors, let's say, makes total sense. And what would you say are some of the key challenges that current permitting processes face and how does public opposition impact them?
[00:03:21] Speaker B: I think, you know, there's a common misconception that we need to deregulate, let's say, so that we accelerate the transition. I don't think it's a problem of regulation or red tape as they like to call it nowadays in the Brussels bubble. I think the key issues that have been identified by the industry themselves, not just by civil society, is a lack of administrative capacity by many permitting authorities, a lack of digitalization and let's say, one stop shop, single contact points and yeah, I would say a lack of social acceptance, a lack of community buying, leading many times to communities, challenging projects at court, getting them jumbled up in these lengthy court battles and then delaying a project for many years.
So if we just stick to the third element, which is also kind of the main focus of today's podcast, if you get the community on board from the early start, from the inception phase of the project, you co decide on the location on a location that is not culturally or environmentally sensitive for the local community. If you find the most appropriate way to ensure community benefits, be it through the establishment of a local community fund, be it through shared offerings, be it through a donation, so that the local community creates its own energy community, so let's say its own 100% locally governed renewable energy project, there's many ways to give back and to ensure fair benefit sharing.
So I think for me that's kind of, let's say, the number one obstacle and the number one opportunity right now.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Quite often we're seeing the phenomenon of developers doing the bare minimum of what the regulations want for energy communities. Why do you think this is happening?
[00:05:12] Speaker B: I think this is a very fair point. There is a lack of a coherent methodology, I would say, across the EU on what are the best practices and the minimum practices that developers should follow.
There's no real, really strict enforcement.
You know, I'll use again the example of Greece that many times we see some big industrial companies using a copy paste, let's say of an environmental impact assessment, for example, or even like a consultation plan of how, you know, they actually engage the local community from other projects. So, you know, they don't even bother to actually do it. They just copy paste something that was done for other projects which really shows the negligence. And I think especially for local participation and for fair benefit sharing, there's a complete lack of a regulatory framework. There's just some voluntary commitments in certain European countries. In others it's more advanced, like let's say Scotland or Ireland where most developers actually have to pay into local community funds. But overall I think we're still missing this step. Strict and harmonized enforcement and yeah, a common methodology across the EU that different member states should transpose so that it's also comparable. We have comparable data across member states.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: What would you say are the risks of leaving community engagement and benefit sharing practices unregulated or inconsistent across jurisdictions and countries? I would say, well, first of all.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Greenwashing, I mean it's any sort of corporation could say that, oh, I've developed this with the local community and I was very fair and very green. But what does that actually mean in practice? If we don't actually harmonize that label, then this would of course also fuel public opposition with the associated delays in project development that we outlined before.
And then for me it would fuel even further broader resistance and speculation against the energy transition as a whole. We're seeing quite a lot, you know, the far right weaponizing anti science, anti climate, anti democratic narratives basically arguing that the, the energy transition is a top down imposition from Brussels to the rest of Europe.
And more and more people are getting on board with this message because they indeed are not seeing the tangible benefits as much as they should have been yet.
So I think we need to seize back that narrative from these more conservative forces and say no, actually if there is a regulated, harmonized, across the board methodology for fair benefit sharing, then we can get the people on board. It can be, you know, and it can be a fair and inclusive transition.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: There are however, some positive things happening. I mean, I was reading the various rescue presentations and papers and there are several European countries that have implemented innovative practices. So could you walk us through some standout examples like Germany or cooperative models in Belgium?
[00:08:22] Speaker B: Indeed the community energy movement, which is kind of this, let's say, counter answer to the just private industrial, renewable energy development.
It's thriving, it's growing quite a lot all over Europe. In Belgium there's the largest energy cooperatives. Actually most of the energy cooperatives in the country, they banded together, they formed a secondary cooperative called SIKOP and now SICOP is actually secured the right to participate with a 10% stake in the offshore wind concessions in the Princess Elizabeth, let's say stake that will be handed out in 2025, so within this year, and this is a historic milestone because you know, we're really talking about tens of thousands of citizens represented through these cooperatives banding together to do such a big investment that both enhances the climate transition. It ensures social and economic justice because, you know, the benefits from that project are spread widely. But also crucially, we see the power of energy communities right now to contribute to the EU's re industrialization objectives. You know, we're seeing all this lingo now about competitiveness and the clean industrial deal, which is fair. I think we should be building or rebuilding local green industries. But let's also take stock of what should be the role of local communities in that.
And we are seeing energy communities managing to flex their muscles, you know, to really grow enough to, to, to take part in that maybe also I can give an example from Denmark where another rescoup member, and let's say it's in the Avador area where they have created an energy community that is powering through solar and storage, a local data center. And also they're using the excess heat from the data center to power a local clean district heating system. So it's a completely circular heating and electricity model.
And I think this is also good to consider now because of the boom in data centers that we are experiencing that is threatening to sidetrack us from our climate and energy objectives as well as.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: Yeah, you're absolutely right. There is quite an interest in data centers. But I would like to stay a little bit in the countries more and discuss also the examples of Spain and Ireland. Spain, for example, from what I read, has some effective regional mandates in involving communities in project ownership also. And when it comes to Ireland, together with Denmark that you already mentioned, community benefit funds in these countries contribute to local development and project acceptance. And is that true? Can you elaborate a little bit?
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I see Ariti, you've done your homework here.
It's becoming more and more of a mainstream thing. It started, as you say, mostly in the uk, in Ireland, in Scotland, these, I would argue, were the pioneering countries.
But we are starting to see this more and more, at least, as you said, in regional levels. Like for example, again in Belgium, where it's a federal system. In the region of Wallonia you have a new regulation that up to 24.9% of stakes in wind projects has to be given to local communities.
In Spain, I would say it's different, that there's no like, let's say federal regulation. So every region has its own approach, but.
Exactly. Because it's another country where we're seeing the energy transition kind of accelerate so fast.
It's also. Yeah, it's something we're seeing more and more there as well. I do want to highlight, since you brought up Spain, A member of Resco PU as well, that through a live project called ace, the Access to Capital for Community Energy, they have created a really interesting community energy financing scheme to accelerate the creation of these local energy communities.
Basically what they're doing is that they're working as an intermediary between local communities and two ethical banks to standardize all the paperwork and to help local communities access loans. So that we kind of start moving as well to bigger and bigger scales of projects where just member crowdfunding is no longer sufficient. You need, for example, loans from financial institutions.
And I think this is quite key because so far we've centered our conversation already on, okay, how do we do co development, development with industrial actors. But I think we also need to reflect on, okay, what are the financing tools and regulations that we need in place for communities by themselves as well, to scale, you know, to go to these really big projects without having to rely on private actors. And I think such financing schemes as the ones that we're seeing in Spain, for example, are quite crucial there.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: We have discussed quite a bit about policy, but correct me if I'm wrong, it's not only a matter of policy, it's also a matter of justice. So why is it important for Rich Coup to frame community engagement and benefit sharing as a matter of justice and not only as policy compliance? So make it legal, let's say, have a legal framework about it.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for many of the reasons we outlined before that have to do with the broader, let's say, narrative right now globally around the green transition and how many people don't yet see, let's say, the concrete and tangible benefits leading to a lot of green loss, as you would call it.
For me, it's, you know, we're going, we're going through a quite remarkable shift in human history where renewable energy, especially solar, has the potential to power a global revolution like of universal access. You know, you're looking at remote villages in the Amazon rainforest or in sub Saharan Africa that would never be connected to the grid because it's just, they're just too remote, too far away. But through decentralized solar, for example, they're finally accessing energy. And not just energy to light light bulbs, but energy to freeze their insulin or to power their, you know, an oxygen machine. So it's quite, it's like a life and death situation for many people.
And even in cities, you know, we're seeing solar panels pop up on so many rooftops. It's unlike oil or gas or coal that are, you know, centralized Assets that can only be owned by big companies or if you allow me, dictatorial governments.
Solar is by definition so decentralized and other renewable sources as well, but especially solar, everyone can have access to it. For me, that is fundamentally about economic energy and social justice.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: And how would you say, meaningful participation in renewable projects? Because this is what we started to discuss in the beginning of our conversation.
Enhance local democracy and foster long term trust.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: I would say, yeah, I would go back to the earlier parts of the conversation. There's the part that has to do with having the right regulation in place.
So a regulation that enables energy communities to be created, you know, Member states in the EU should have transposed, should have created an enabling framework all the way back in 2021. You know, we're at the stage where the Commission is starting to look at infringement procedures from many countries.
So first of all you need that effective regulation. And the regulation also goes to the interaction of private developers with local communities. What we said before that we need a harmonized EU level methodology.
Climate Action Network has put out a really good report called Fair Benefit Sharing and it kind of starts to outline some 13, 14 KPIs that developers can start using to measure fair benefit sharing with local communities. And they have shared that with the Commission as well. So I think this conversation is starting to open about how do we harmonize this.
And also crucially, going back to energy communities per se, we are now seeing another push by the European Commission to mainstream citizen energy through the citizen energy package. A consultation has just opened for a raft of measures, let's say a new strategy that the Commission will take forward to boost financing, boost technical assistance, new legislative instruments to ensure that Member States allow for participation in energy communities.
So there's many opportunities that are coming up in terms of policy and in terms of regulation.
But of course there's also the awareness part and I think that goes to the heart of your question.
For me, I myself am a member of an energy community in Athens and ultimately it's really about reinvigorating that sense of the commons, of personal responsibility.
Not in the neoliberal individual responsibility sense of the word, but in the more, let's say, if you allow me, anarchist sense of each of us being empowered so that we a contribute to a collective good.
So yeah, I would say that's, that's how energy communities would contribute to that, to that shared sense of responsibility that you, you asked about.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: But what would a robust EU wide framework, framework for fair benefit sharing look like in practice? Especially if it is an Anarchist one especially.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: So yeah, no, I would say an anarchist eu. Okay, let's, let's unpack that maybe in another episode. I think that the warrants its but a fair framework for benefit sharing. Yeah, I would really start with looking at this report by Climate Action Network. It has a KPI's such as how many jobs a developer created in the local community, how many person months were invested in understanding the local context, how many inputs and proposals were taken on board by the local community.
To what extent is there a mediator like an organization in place that can work with the local community and the developer to just kind of find common solutions? So it's really very practical, implementable, actionable indicators that developers today can start using.
You know, as resgroup, as the European Federation of Energy Communities, we kind of see as the golden standard energy communities. So projects that are 100% owned by local municipalities, SMEs and persons.
But we also see a lot of room in this. Yeah, in this new narrative of co development and co ownership between private actors and local communities.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: You mentioned the KPIs. Do you see them playing a positive role in measuring the fairness and effectiveness of community engagement? Or are they again something that has the potential but perhaps in action won't play a very good role?
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a really good question. There's definitely, let's say room for greenwashing and social Washington and that's always the case.
But that for me again goes back to the need to actually make that framework mandatory because.
And to put monitoring mechanisms in place, ideally by national energy regulatory authorities. So it's not just a tick box exercise that. Okay, you're following the KPIs, but who is actually holding you accountable for what you're claiming to be doing?
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Negotiations have started for the next multiannual EU budget, the so called MFF that will run from 2028 onwards. How can the EU budget support energy communities better then?
[00:20:29] Speaker B: This is a good point indeed.
In the EU bubble right now, there's a lot of tension around, there's so many spending priorities, you know, nature, climate, democracy. But all these new ideas now about rearmament and defense and border control. And you know, we are seeing a more conservative European Parliament, a more conservative European Council.
So there's quite a lot of push by civil society to defend a greener and more social Europe, a bigger EU budget that can ensure that the EU lives up to the bigger role that it's expected to play in a more fragmented geopolitical landscape.
And you know, RESCO PU in the, in June of 2025, during the European Sustainable Energy Week, we put out a vision paper on how they this next EU budget could support energy communities.
It centered around two key pillars. Let's say one is to simplify access to EU funds for energy communities. Currently it's very scattered. You know, it's like EU funds seem very far away, it's hard to access them, they're very bureaucratic. So we really want to see in place one stop shops in every country where a community can walk in and just get all the information they need for a grant, for a loan, you know, for whatever it might be.
We want to see a recognition of these so called community energy financing schemes, which I mentioned before. With the example of Spain, such schemes have been created also in Romania, in Croatia, in the Netherlands, in France, in Belgium. They're being discussed now in Italy and the Czech Republic. So it's really schemes financing schemes created by community energy organizations for community energy organizations with a very strong leverage factor. For every public euro you put in a community energy financing scheme, you generate 40 to 60 Euros of private investment down the line.
So we really want the EU budget to support, you know, to channel more funds to energy communities, but through these community energy financing schemes, because these can be multipliers, they can generate more private investment.
And there is, this is the second pillar, this is the role of financial institutions such as the European Investment bank that they can fill in to create a guarantee scheme, for example, for these community energy financing schemes so that then big private investors, either financial institutions, they can come in and capitalize these community energy financing schemes, these revolving funds, so that they can keep providing structural support to energy communities on the ground.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: There are also consultations, right, that have opened for a new package of measures that the Commission will implement to support community energy. What do you expect from this citizen energy package?
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah, we briefly mentioned that as well before, but there's quite a big bucket list of what RESCO wants to see in that package.
First of all, we'd like to see an EU wide mandatory target for, for community energy.
We have an EU target for renewables in general, the 42.5, aiming for 45% by 2030.
But what if we had a sub target within that that was specifically for community owned renewable energy projects and then disaggregating that at the national level so that every member state has a target and then based on the target, every member state creates a national strategy, a pathway of measures of how are you going to get there, how are you going to build out this community energy.
I think that, let's say that would be the first thing and maybe some, two, three other key things that come to mind is for the commission to keep pushing member states to finalize the transposition.
Again, most member states don't have an enabling or not most, but many member states still don't have an enabling framework for energy communities and really unlocking more financing as well. I would say, be it through EU funds, be it through these community energy financing schemes that we talked about before.
I think it's really, it's still a gap for many communities on how do they cover kind of these first steps of a community energy project, you know, paying for the lawyer, paying for the business plan, getting the community together. I think there's still, there's still a gap there that could be filled.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: I would like to finish our discussion with, with an open call or something that you can say to the, the energy communities that feel left out because we are discussing a lot of positive, positive steps that are happening. But not every energy community feel that is in the energy transition process.
There are communities that feel left out. What would you say to them?
[00:25:43] Speaker B: That is a good question. And you know, it's really, it makes us openly reflect on how do we make this movement more inclusive.
I think maybe an open call.
And I would say that I would direct that as well to the members of Rescue Bu as well, not just to the outside world. Is that a good colleague of mine created an inclusivity guide. It's called the Inclusivity Guide for Energy Communities and it presents a whole list of measures that the community can take to become more inclusive towards its members first and foremost, but also just towards the broader society. I'll give you a very small example. The idea of hiring a child carer so that parents, members of an energy community that are parents, and especially women mothers, can attend general assemblies of the community, because many times, you know, who's going to take care of the kids if the parents want to attend the General Assembly? So this is just one example, but I think, yeah, definitely we need to keep working on this.
But I want to say for me, this is the open call to energy communities across the EU feeling like we're part of something bigger, feeling like we're challenging the old world that is dying. You know, a world of a centralized, dirty, oligopolic energy system that's, you know, now shouting drill, baby, drill. But that for me is kind of like, you know, the scream you make in your deathbed because, you know that you've reached the end. Basically, they're not convincing anyone anymore the renewable energy transition is here.
So, yeah, it just feels like you're part of this bigger revolution. If you allow me, that is both for climate justice, but also, crucially, for economic justice. If we can all produce our own energy, that just fundamentally reorients the power dynamics of the world.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: If President Trump only knew how you used his motto, I'm sure he would be thrilled. Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate this, your availability and our conversation.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Thanks a lot. It was great chatting.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: You've been listening to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast brought to you by Enlit and Friends. You can find us on Spotify, Apple and the Enlit World website.
Just hit subscribe and you can access our other episodes, too. I'm Aretit Daradimo. Thank you for joining us.
