Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast series from Enlida and France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Aretid Daradimu. I. I am the editor of the EU Energy Project podcast and your host.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Last week during the EU Sustainable Energy Week Policy Conference I had the pleasure of following a session called Electrifying Unlocking Flexibility and Innovation for a Decarbonized Future.
It was an interesting session that aimed at exploring challenges and opportunities related to grid flexibility and viable renewable energy integration in industrial operations.
Today I have the opportunity to discuss with two of the main actors of this session, Maria Laura Trifiletti and Eduardo Genova, both of them innovation consultants at Zappala Innovation.
Maria Laura Eduardo, thank you very much for having this discussion at the EU Energy Projects Podcast with me. Why would you say is electrification considered a cornerstone for achieving climate neutrality in Europe's industrial sector? Maria Laura, would you like to give us an answer?
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks Heredi and thanks for inviting us to this interesting podcast because this is exactly in line with the session that we had last week at the USEF Policies conference that was really focused on indeed electrification of industrial processes. And we discuss we had an interesting panel discussing indeed how to unlock flexibility innovation for a decarbonized future. So and we had the interesting speakers from industries from the energy system side.
So to really see how electrification can improve the performance of the industrial processes. But not only we also indeed focus on why electrification is essential and as we know indeed electrification enable the use of renewable electricity can also improve energy efficiency. And this is really essential for achieving the goals of the European Green deal before but also now the new clean industrial deal with really focus on industries as well.
So what we discuss with these stakeholders and these interesting panelists and also the session was moderated by the European Commission from DG Energy.
We really had the main stakeholders around the table was about the need for electrification in industrial processes and to reply also to the increased demand expected in the next decade about electricity electrification in industrial processes. And we needed also to see what kind of grid infrastructures were needed needed to be improved for managing this higher demand that we are going to incur. In this need of the electrification industrial processes is driven by an overarching goal of decarbonization of energy efficiency, but also for reducing the dependency on the important energy and really again stressing the need of let's say betting on European competitiveness. This is really important from the European Commission but Also from the stakeholders, the European stakeholders, as we know. But as we know, electrification still involves replacing the traditional use of fossil fuels with the electricity driven processes.
If we manage to do this, if we put the right measure in place, then we can really contribute to significantly reduce carbon emissions and especially when fossil free electric power sources are used.
So just to reply you why it's important really to focus on electrification for really get rid of as much as possible and get far as much as possible from fossil fuel as intended. Now.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: Eduardo, do you agree? And can you also a little bit expand and tell us how can industries adapt their operations to the variability of renewable energy sources without however compromising competitiveness?
[00:04:48] Speaker D: Yes, yes already. And let me thank you also for this great opportunity. Is a pleasure to be part of this podcast.
Marilaura provided you with a very comprehensive reply, but I would like just to add a couple of things. The first thing is I like to take a step back and to really try to assess together why this need and the need is that we find ourselves as the eu, but also as humankind, let's say a strategic and ontological also crossroad. We have on the one hand to pursue the at European level, the European Green Deal and the decarbonization to reduce our impact on the environment. But at the same time we have also to ensure that these doesn't affect doesn't impact our competitiveness at industrial level, which for the EU in this moment is never as before, a priority. Therefore we have to ensure that our our industries increase even more their production. But at the same time we cannot continue as the state of the artists.
This is the reason why we have to in order to get rid of fossil fuels, we have to pursue the electrification side of things.
This electrification also goes hand in hand with the circularity. To reply to your question of the different ways, how to enact this circularity is a reuse of the energy which is generated within industrial processes. Most of the heavy and process industries they do produce a lot of thermal energy which most of the time it just dispersed into the environment. Whereas something that should be done more is to reuse this thermal energy at district level or at industry level and to transform it into different kind of energy, like electricity for instance. And in order to be able to store this energy and to reuse it during the peak hours for instance. There is an additional point that I wanted to tackle which is also the fact that yes, on the one hand we have the incorporation of all these renewable energy sources, which therefore translate into higher production of electricity and what we hope to be a higher reliance of electricity for industrial processes. But it is also important to keep in mind that we have to find a way to stock this electricity to store it.
Storage.
It's something that we've been working on that the research and innovation is mostly focused on batteries as technologies.
But it is also true that it's something that need more attention, need more attention. More technologies need to be funded and pursued. Like the so called long duration energy storage technologies, which are a cluster of different technologies growing, encompassing mechanical, chemical, thermal ways of storing energy that is generated, let's say during the daytime for photovoltaics and that can be enabled, that can be reactivated into the night hours, for instance, where when the PV don't work. And in this way it is also possible to shift the consumption of electricity and therefore also the the industrial processes.
The time when industries run to hours where there is less demand for electricity within the day.
[00:08:34] Speaker C: Maybe if I can add already.
[00:08:36] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:08:37] Speaker C: Just to come back to your question indeed is how can industries adapt their operations to the variability of their renewables without indeed compromising competitiveness?
We need to be sure that we integrate flexibility mechanisms. Okay, so this is really another key word that we need to keep in mind and was discussed and mentioned during our session in USEF but also during the Set Plan Implementation Working Groupon Industry annual event two weeks ago.
Because flexibility is key. We need to indeed integrate for example demand side response digitalization.
But also we need also to look at for example direct current technologies and microgrids. Okay, so we need really to have a look at the full spectrum of mechanisms that needs to be flexible as much as possible to really enable industries to align production with renewables availability. And without forgetting that this we need to turn all the variability also in economic opportunities. That is really important also for stakeholders.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Mentioning flexibility and storage. My mind directly goes to EU funded projects and the various programs that fund them like Horizon.
We have a lot of possibilities there, a lot of ideas.
How important would you say is the role of EU funded projects?
[00:10:11] Speaker C: This is a very interesting question and I think this is key in all this discussion. Because European projects don't need to be seen only as projects that start and that end. No, they are the base for creating new technologies that needs to be implemented in the real world and going more closer and closer to the market to be then concretely used.
So European funded projects are really the key and the starting point for, for doing this. For enabling Industries Research Center University to do this.
We need to look at several programs. Sometimes we hear yes Horizon Europe is the most famous one when we speak about European projects. But it's not the only one. Horizon Europe is key for all what we are discussing here. For energy systems, for. For improving grid infrastructures, connecting them, connecting the fields, for example energy, transport, everything is connected. And there are several programs like CEF program beyond. Indeed, Horizon Europe until now was focusing a lot on research innovation actually. So really giving a lot of focus on research. Because some technology is still to be researched, to be improved and to go closer to the market. But there are also other problems that we need to take into account. For example, Innovation Fund. Innovation Fund is really something that bring now more and more the technology closer to the market. And this is one of the program where industries needs to be more focused on.
But not only I would like also to remind that this is also a life sub program that is called Clean Energy Transition sub program.
And then really there is the opportunity to have also funded more coordination and support action already. But still that put in connection each other sectors. It is really important.
And because European funded projects allow, yes, to develop the gun, to do research, to go closer to the market, but also allow to have contact with other stakeholders. And engagement, dialogue, exchange is key for achieving whatever goal the Commission put on their policy.
So without EU funded projects, you wouldn't be able.
Stakeholders wouldn't be able to develop technologies, but also to know other technologies.
And let me also spend a few words on the role of indeed the stakeholder engagement also inside of the world of the European projects. Because sometimes we think only about, yes, developing a technology. But what then what we do with this technology that we develop?
If we don't disseminate, if we don't communicate the results of our project properly, and with a lot of strength, technology will remain there will probably die when you will not have any more fund. This is not efficient. This is not what the European Commission put money for. The European Commission put money for being sure that thanks to the intellectual property and the intellectual capacity of stakeholders, technology will be developed, improved.
But this technology needs to then be used, be put in the market, needs to be sold. Otherwise they remain just a nice results of a project that pay for three years. But is not what is the aim of the scope of the European Commission.
So what I also suggest to the audience that is listening to this podcast is not stop only to the first action.
You are doing a European project, fine, good work, a lot for succeeding in it. But then look at the next look at the exploitation of the project, of the results of your project.
Check how you can exploit and how you can go closer to the market, enter into the market with your. And how you do this with other funds, with other opportunities, indeed other calling Horizon Europe maybe closer to the market if you have for Innovation Fund with life, with also other tools, Clean Energy Transition Partnership, for example, that fund the project also on national level, because we don't need also to forget we always speak about European project. It's fine, but there are also the member states that put money in funding activities. Maybe part of the activities, maybe smaller, smaller scale. But this part, this development can be then used also in European project as base. So really look out of the box, look around, don't stop. But remember that European projects, or projects in general are key for enabling whatever technology, whatever goal the European Commission put in place.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: I think you mentioned a couple of very important things here already that I want to discuss a little bit. First of all, it's communication and dissemination. It's absolutely necessary. And I think that the Horizon programs are a tad better, if I may say so myself, in communication and dissemination than Life or innovation fund, etc. And that's why we know them a little bit more. Not that it's perfect, of course. More things can be done and we're learning as we go. And I'm sure the Commission also learns as they go, but I already think it's my opinion that Horizon has a little bit more funds, maybe for dissemination and communication. That is one. And the second thing that I couldn't agree more that you said that you mentioned is the nationally regionally funded project.
And it's funny that you're mentioning it because for the first time this year at Enlighten Bilbao, the EU project zone where you come guys on a yearly basis and I thank you for that, will include nationally funded projects because we at Enlit, we also believe that there needs to be a collaboration between the EU Commission and the national governments, etc.
[00:16:52] Speaker C: Yes. And on this side I would like also to remind maybe something that not all stakeholders or all the audience knows, but there is what is called Strategic Energy Technology Plan. That is the set plan. That is the forum where Member States and European Commission sit together really to identify the gaps at technological level that are raised by stakeholders and really verify where money investments are needed.
So really I'm super happy because I always participate to ELITE and I'm a super fan of Elliot for not just because of a big event and recognize, but because it's really a place where stakeholders can talk and can meet in unfriendly environment.
Very Nice. The European Project zone. I suggest everyone to go because it's really where you can discuss about what is really out of there and maybe knowing also other initiatives like indeed the set plan that maybe are less known, but they are still a lot important and maybe they can reply to some questions that stakeholders have or some needs that SEC holders have.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
But at this point I would also like to circle a little bit back to flexibility because it is an important topic. And Eduardo, my next question is for you. What role do direct current technologies and microgrids play in enabling efficient flexible energy systems for industrial use?
[00:18:30] Speaker D: Thank you. It's a very important question indeed. To reply to this, I will take a step back and get back to your previous question about the role of European projects because there is just something I would like to add which is very linked to DC to direct current technologies, which is that one of the things that the European projects allow do is to support pilot testing and demonstration at a very big scale, allowing for the creation of demonstrations and pilots across the different industries up to a scale that otherwise would have not been possible.
These concretely speaking, coming to D.C. allows for instance to the incorporation of different technologies within the same industrial side. Let's say we put together PV on the roof of the industry together with the concentrated solar thermal to produce heat which is then stored and it is used to produce steam, which eventually becomes electricity. And therefore what happens in this industrial cluster we have described is that we have a lot of electricity generation and use within the same area, which requires a smaller smart grid in situ, which it's possible to work and function only thanks to direct current technologies, which in a nutshell support the local generation and the storage integration within the same area and enable for the creation of a cluster of industry prosumers and users within the same area and help also to reduce conversion losses and improve efficiency. I don't know if you remember, for instance, of course you do, the big issues that have been in Diaberg Peninsula three, four weeks ago. The massive shutdown.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. Who can forget that? Yeah. In France also. Absolutely.
[00:20:42] Speaker D: Yes, yes. How can we forget that? It was, was massive and the causes are still under investigation. But one of the reason, one of the main possible explanation is due to a sudden change in the voltage of the electricity, which, I mean there is system in place for the whole energy system to compensate for this. But when you have plenty of these effect one next to each other, there is a cascade effect, a multiplier effect that is enabled, which eventually basically creates so Much entropy that the delta, the change in the, in the voltage is so strong that the system can no longer accommodate.
And we had a more functioning direct current system and the better ability to deal with the low voltage, probably this would have not been the case.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Staying a little bit on the barriers and the issues, what are the main, would you say, technical or regulatory barriers currently hindering the widespread deployment of flexible decarbonized industrial energy systems?
[00:21:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I can give you a feedback reply on this, but I also would like to do a step back, but this is part of the potential barriers.
I would like to focus also to remind the importance of the local and regional energy system integration, because we speak a lot about European level. But as we briefly introduce in details in our previous discussion for European projects, the local dimension, the regional dimension is essential. And why is because each place has its own needs.
So we need to be sure that we take these regional and local needs into account.
Otherwise, if you think that you can produce something standardized and usable from everyone, it doesn't work. Every place has its own issues. So this is why really the national side, it's really important, is really important also in link with industrial zone, because also for this, every zone can have different needs.
This can be a limit, an obstacle. One of the barriers that we need to take into account.
Then there are of course regulations. Regulations are really important. Regulation and standardization are really important.
So we need to be sure that we are in direct contact with the policymakers to make sure that regulation for the new technologies that are implemented and for the application to the industrial processes, for example, in this case, are guaranteed.
So we need to accelerate these dialogues.
I heard sometimes, like in some Z Plan conference in the past, or even attend it in some of the sessions, that regulation can take years, decade to arrive to a conclusion. And as well as the application of standards, common standards.
So we really need to work on it. The stakeholders, the policymakers need really to work and accelerate. Otherwise, when you reach a regulation for one technology, the technology is not anymore already updated and there is another one. So at the end you kind of lost time, lost time, lost the momentum, lost the opportunity.
And whatever has been funded, whatever has been realized, is not usable, because there is something that works better already. So it's a waste of money, of investment.
So we really need to focus on regulatory barriers in terms of technical barriers. Well, of course we all know that we need to, as the policymakers do, we need to highlight the importance of access to affordable fossil free energy.
We need to have supportive policies to facilitate this transition.
Renewable Electricity supply is essential for achieving this decarbonization in all the full electrification industrial processes.
And this requires of course not only technical advancement, but also policy advancement.
But there are also some non technical barriers that we need also to address. We need to improve the digitalization. It's one was always one of the focus. The European Commission, if I don't make mistakes now soon will update the digitalization action plan in the next autumn probably so there will be a grid regulation, grid action plan. These are all also focusing on technological but also no technological issues. And when it comes to technological issues, for me one important point to address are the improvement of grid infrastructures.
This is really important.
Also connection with the renewables. And not only are not only thinking always to the traditional renewables.
Pv, solar, we hear a lot of them, but there are others.
We have ocean, we have onshore and offshore wind, we have geothermal for example. So we really need to be sure that all the renewables are taken to account heating and so on.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: Eduardo, I don't know if you want to add something to this.
[00:26:36] Speaker D: Yeah, thank you Rati. Just a couple of points. Although I said Marilaura replies are very very comprehensive.
I just want to stress the importance of updating what is nowadays an outdated grid. As Marilaura said. Building up on this something that we should pursue more is a better integration amongst the different European countries, different European member states, the transmission of energy. Something that is tackle at national level.
And although it's not complicated to be pursued, but it's something that should be managed more at union level. We are known to be the land of regulations by.
By. By many people. Which is something that sometimes impinge of in the way on innovation makes things more longer. But it is important also that more better standards are identified at the level the entire European au. Going beyond what are differences across the different member states from a technical point of view. Another thing I want to stress is already what touched upon before. It's the importance of storage of alternative ways to store energy for which there are no many incentives. There is no much political recognition going back to long duration energy storage technologies. There is not even an agreed definition of what LDs are.
And this is something that would help to reduce the risk the overall perceived risk of the whole system, which in turn would also increase the likelihood of private investments. If the overall system is perceived as too risky, then private investors they don't chip in because it's to risk.
Then it will be necessary for the European Union and for public authorities to step in and help reducing the perceived Risk and at the risking.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Speaking of risks and speaking of the future a little bit and what we need to do. I have one final question for you guys. How does this shift towards electrification and flexibility with the issues that it has that we already discussed, align with the broader goals of the Clean Industrial Deal and the EU Green Deal?
[00:29:24] Speaker C: Yes. So just briefly, I really like to stress to identify keywords always will reply because I'm pretty sure that in this way it remains more fixed in your mind for me. Indeed, to reply to your question, electrification and flexibility are key are the real at the moment. Enable are among the most important enablers for decarbonization for guarantee the industrial competitiveness that is requested by the Clean Industrial Deal and the European Green Deal.
[00:30:09] Speaker D: To.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: Contribute also to the energy sovereignty.
And how to do this. To do this is like. There is in my opinion the really strong need to support twin grill and digital transition, for example at EU level. But as we said also at national level, we need to be sure that we support industrial modernization because also infrastructure modernization of industries is one another key.
But we need also to look to another side who will work in these industries, who will then apply and use these technologies.
There is the strong need of skills, skills at educational level, so at university vocational centers, but also at workforce level.
So we need also to form the next generation that will operate and use the technologies that will be applied and integrated in the industry.
So for me these are some keywords and key sectors that will really support the shift toward electrification flexibility, but especially to meet the European goals by 2030 and even further now 2040.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Thank you, Maria Laura. Eduardo, some final thoughts from you too.
[00:31:40] Speaker D: To this I would like to add the critical importance that at this moment is at stake in terms of increasing the competitiveness of European industries and enhancing what has been the massive firepower of the European engine production engine. Let's say it is important. However, not to forget the decarbonization goals we have put for ourselves with the European Green Deal and not to down downscale them.
Still other important things that the announcement of the on industrial competitiveness can bring is also an additional energy security and lack of dependence from external sources which applies both for the production of energy sources but also for critical raw materials. For instance, one with the Critical Raw Material act, the European Commission is really stressing the importance of using the least possible amount of critical raw material which are instead the substitute with the with different kind of materials and technologies that can be produced within the European Union. It is a way to increase our independence. Let's say, and to limit the risk that could be associated with the, with tariffs, with the systemic crisis as the one we have been witnessing in the last years.
This is really a way to ensure that our European industrial powerhouse, it's something that can support for our internal needs, all of this keeping in mind the important goals of decarbonization and the reduction of our carbon footprint.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Maria, Laura, Eduardo, thank you both very much for this very interesting discussion.
And thank you also for a very interesting session during Sustainable Energy Week.
Thank you so much.
[00:33:48] Speaker D: Our pleasure. Already been great and looking forward to Endlight.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: Thank you very much.
[00:33:55] Speaker A: You've been listening to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast brought to you by Enlit and Friends. You can find us on Spotify, Apple and the Enlit World website.
Just hit subscribe and you can access our other episodes too. I'm Aretit Daradimo. Thank you for joining us.
