Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast series from Enlida and France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it. My name is Aretid Daradimu. I. I am the editor of the EU Energy Projects Podcast and your host.
In this episode of the EU Energy Projects Podcast, we're diving into the critical topic of system flexibility, not just as a technical solution, but as a strategic enabler of the energy transition.
We'll use the Be Flexible Project as a concrete example and go beyond the project itself to look at the policy and regulatory landscape that will determine how far and how fast flexibility can scale.
I'm joined by two guests who bring both practical insight and strategic perspective. Anastasia Scapula, lead of the dissemination task of the Be Flexible Project and Charles Esser, Secretary General of EDSO for Smart Grids, the association representing Europe's leading electricity distribution system operators.
We'll discuss where innovation is happening, what's still holding it back, and what's needed from policymakers to unlock flexibility as a core asset for a decarbonized Europe.
Charles Anastasia, thank you both very much for being here with me today in this episode. And Charles, my first question is for you. What do you see as the key regulatory or market conditions that currently shape how flexibility is deployed across Europe?
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Thank you. First of all, thank you very much.
And thanks very much to enlit, which we have participated in for many years as a dso. So I first wanted to say that. Yes, so I think just to be clear, of course here we're talking about market flexibility so that producers and customers in coordination, adjust the consumption production according to the needs identified in this case by the dso, then we'll talk a little bit about the TSO as well.
There could also be a kind of technical flexibility through varying kinds of tools to manage and operate the network in a more dynamic way. We'll put that aside for this conversation. I think today flexibility, of course, can be achieved through various things. It can be achieved through demand side management. It can be achieved through energy storage adjustments to power generation. When we say demand side management, that means consumers adjusting what they do, and not just household consumers, but oftentimes industrial consumers.
And so I think it's well known that electricity networks need to be kept in constant balance. So with between the amount of electricity generated and the amount of consumed. And so flexibility is sort of keeping that balance. But, but why have it you want to improve grid stability?
You can. If we, we've seen, of course, if the grid becomes unstable. Of course that was on the transmission network recent, but that was in Spain in, in April.
It can also help us reduce our reliance on, on, on fossil fuels because we can have greater integration of renewable resources.
Let's say solar and wind are, are, have their advantages but of course they're variable unlike let's say conventional thermal power plant. And so having flexibility you can more easily integrate them with the network.
You can more efficiently use the network which in itself is cost savings and indeed not only for cost savings for the network itself, but cost savings can be put there for consumers so that they can benefit from their own flexibility.
They can benefit from not needing to use their dishwasher at noon rather than at midnight, depending what the situation is. So a lot of regulation has been put in place at European level and I'll talk mostly at European level today. Of course there was the electricity regulation Electricity directive from the Clean energy package of 2019 and these were the regulation focusing more on wholesale markets, the directive focusing more on retail markets. But both have provisions to, to enhance the use of flexibility. For example in the directive a lot of provisions on enhancing consumer participation in the energy transition. Whereas in the regulation focusing more on wholesale markets, a lot of that is more relevant for the, for the tso, the transmission system operator then for us is the dso, but still important.
And of course then more recently from last year was the, was the sort of electricity market design reform which amended both the regulation and the directive incorporated new measures for to increase the share of renewable energy, promote flexibility. Of course the regulation itself mandates that Member States assess the flexibility needs and potentially set objectives for non fossil flexibility.
It also encourages the use of demand response energy storage. So I think these are some very important things and of course which I'll come back to later, particularly when it comes to 2024 legislation there's implementation issues.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. Charles, seems to me like flexibility is sort of the backbone of the grid, of the energy grid and it has various ramifications and we need to compartmentalize in some occasions in order to go deeper projects. EU funded projects like Be Flexible assist in this way. So Anastasia, I want to come to you now and I would like to ask you to walk us through the main objectives of the Be Flexible project and how it's designed to advance flexibility at the distribution level.
[00:06:07] Speaker C: Thank you Areti. And I would like to thank you as well from my side for welcoming me to this podcast. It's an honor to be here representing Be Flexible.
So before I start maybe talking about the objectives just to Briefly note that Be Flexible, it's a Horizon Europe project comprising of 21 partners.
We have 12 pilots in total in four different countries across Europe, in Italy, Spain, France and Sweden, which in my view it's a really strong element of the project, how wide it is, let's say.
And in terms of its objectives, I would say the core objective is the fact that it is to find a way to coordinate all together with all relevant actors of the energy system from household DSOs, TSOs, aggregators, energy communities, and bring them all together to make sure that they can effectively and actively support the grid in terms of advancing flexibility.
Now, to do that we are doing various things. We are testing new business models and local flexibility platforms.
We are looking into new ways of coordinating DSOs and TSOs when they both need flexibility, because they both do and they need to coordinate. For example, in some pilots, specifically in Italy, we're using traffic light schemes to manage local congestion at distribution level without compromising national system stability.
And in some others, we're also exploring how EV charging or building thermal loads can respond to price signals or grid constraints, and what kind of services need to be developed to deal with these kinds of constraints. Now, another big part of the work and the objective of Be Flexible is to identify where current regulations and policies are working as hindering factors and as enabling factors accordingly, but also speaking in economic terms.
And we do that through real data used in our pilots, extracted from our pilots.
And as I mentioned earlier, this happens across different contexts, from urban grids in Spain to rural networks in Sweden. And this helps us ensure that our solutions can be scaled and replicated across Europe. Now, in my view, for DSOs and at distribution level, what is a huge benefit from the project and what they can win from the project is the fact that the project creates, like I said earlier, a collaborative, holistic approach and environment that allows for this coordination that is very much needed. In terms of flexibility, we cannot look at flexibility from one side as DSOs, as single entities. Collaboration, in other words, is key. And this is a huge asset of the project.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: I would say absolutely. Flexibility cannot happen without collaboration. DSOs, TSOs on the first, let's say, level, and then many more other actors to come. Charles, how do initiatives like Be Flexible help translate high level policy goals into on the ground innovation and investment?
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Yes, I mean, I think there's a couple perspectives that are important to look at. I mean, from one side, of course, we can see what's still lacking, what kind of frameworks are lacking to really actually carry out what we want to do so I think the project does that, but it also can identify barriers.
It is always tricky when you're doing this project simultaneously as implementation is occurring. So that you can sometimes say well okay, but if this were implemented, but it isn't yet, but we know it will be, then this would be easier. But I think, you know, one of the be flexible projects, concrete objectives is to contribute recommendations and solutions from these projects and these will be brought to the European Commission.
And so the European Commission will see directly ah, okay, this worked and this didn't. And the European Commission of course is always thinking about what needs to be done, what needs to be tweaked. They will announce a new package, legislative package on proposed legislative package on grids at the end of the year, probably in December. And so you know, these kinds of things can feed into future legislation. But also I think, you know, it's not just about legislation, it's also about projects like be flexible really sending a signal to market actors who are outside of the of the project about what works and what doesn't, what might be a good investment. So that investors are looking at what, what should we invest in or let's say our member DSOs who as you mentioned are amongst Europe's leading DSOs, in other words from the largest DSOs in Europe building, all the top 10 largest are members of EDSO so they have considerable resources to invest and they look at horizon projects and think about how what's really worthwhile to invest in and can help them make the case to the regulator about their investments. Because in the end, as regulated entities, these large capital investments need to be justified and approved. And so having projects like your, like be flexible that are with that have EU funds that can do it at lower risk or allow the regulator to really see what was already done through through European funding can really be a benefit for, for eventual implementation at larger scale.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Anastasia, do you agree from your more be flexible let's say point of view, if I may say it like this.
[00:12:00] Speaker C: Yes, I completely agree with Charles and if I am to put it in a more simple way is how I would say it is that okay policy, like high level policy goals, they tell us okay what needs to be done by when, etc. Projects like BE flexible show us how to do it and what are the obstacles they also bring to the surface obstacles and challenges that the regulator or the policymaker once proposing something they unless they have their eyes on, on the ground on what is actually happening, maybe they cannot foresee certain challenges and also especially since we're talking in the context of Europe, for in many different contexts of Europe, so it's impossible to foresee, let's say, and to be prepared for all the different challenges that may come up. And that's what we do. For example, in Rome and in Bilbao, we are testing, in Benidorm, actually, we're testing what kind of consumer incentives could work in a tourist city. So what the high level policy goals will say that, okay, yeah, we should incentivize consumers and be flexible will tell you how you should do it and whether this specific approach that we're taking works or not. And in terms of investment, like Charles also said, of course, when companies, relevant companies, see that new business models that are being tested in projects like be Flexible are working, for example aggregating EV charging or heat pumps, it gives them confidence to boost investment commercially. It's like policy learning by doing, I would say.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: So. I really like what you said, going and doing in the same, let's say, frame. However, some things have a strategic, let's say, option in them and we can't just see and go as it goes.
So I would like to ask you, Charles, how well do current regulatory frameworks support the type of innovation needed to scale flexibility solutions?
[00:14:05] Speaker B: I think I mentioned this already in a little bit, the word implementation, but I'll get into it a bit more. I think part of it is that a lot of frameworks are there that are not being used just simply because legislation isn't implemented yet. Maybe that's fair enough when it comes to directive from, from last year, but when it comes to clean energy package, I mean, this is a, this is something that probably is, let's say, less justified. And so we still need a kind of a complete, let's say, implementation to really understand how well current regulatory frameworks are doing this.
Let's say at a European level, I would say at a member state level, what we hear from our members and it's something we're looking at in terms of, particularly in the revenue regulation kind of side, is that some member state regulators, let's say, are more forward thinking than others. I'm not here to name names, but definitely we get the feedback that we get from our members is that there's a real heterogeneity amongst member state regulators in terms of how much their frameworks are really supporting the kind of innovation that's needed. There are definitely some best practices out there and that's something that we, outside of the project and more on the side of the association, let's say are working on to really understand what are those best practices.
I would also point out too that there's ongoing additional frameworks. There's a network code of demand response that's being worked out and that's still in process.
Though the European Commission has emphasized, for example at the Florence forum in the last couple of years when I've been there, they've said don't wait for the network code and demand response. There's a lot you can do without the network code. And so while the network code is good or we wouldn't be doing it, there is a lot that we can do. And so some of the implementation is out there. But given when we a lot of untapped potential for flexibility, probably the frameworks can still be better. But I think there's also. It's not just about frameworks, it's also about making those investments, taking the time for those investments to bear fruit.
Regulators having sandboxes as well. It's not just, it's not just horizon projects, important as they are, but also allowing for. For regulatory sandboxes to occur on some of these things. Again, some regulators better than others on that or just better is not the right word, but just have done more. So I would say probably overall a kind of mixed picture, but it's not necessarily. It's complicated why it's a mixed picture. It's not simply because someone wrote something that's halfway good. It's. It's more, it's more complicated. It's much more complicated than that.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: You're absolutely right. But I do like the way that you in a way wed the do things as we go and learn from our experience and a strategic vision. Because both aspects I think are needed when it comes to regulation, not only for flexibility, but for other things like AI, et cetera. Anastasia, I was wondering because you're the one mentioning the go as learn as we go. Do you agree with what Charles mentioned, the way he created a wedding between strategy and experience?
[00:17:22] Speaker C: Yes, definitely. I totally agree. And from what what we can say from be flexible point of view in terms of the challenges that we see because. Ok, in terms of regulatory framework support for flexibility, we see and we can certainly say that we've come a long way and we need to recognize that there is effort being made and that flexibility is recognized as a valuable aspect, let's say of the energy system and we've opened the door to new actors like energy communities and aggregators. But when we look closer to specific contexts and how these regulations, for example, or all sorts of regulations related to flexibility are applied on the ground. We still see several challenges and that's where be flexible. Like mentioned earlier, being on the ground sees these challenges. And one of the core challenges that I would here highlight is the fragmentation. And Charles also mentioned that flexibility in theory might be supported, but the mechanisms behind it, for example the tariffs, the local markets, the congestion connection agreements and whatnot, are designed separately and they don't always work well together. But this is why we are here to kind of find ways of standardizing the processes.
But I can talk more about this later.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. But you gave me a really nice assistance to ask a question to Charles about the barriers. Now I would like to use your vast experience, Charles, and ask you to be critical and tell us what are some of the key regulatory or structural barriers that limit DSOs from investing in innovative solutions.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: One of the things may be simply a focus on short term cost control.
And I know this is also a topic that you wanted to get into and maybe I can kind of combine it here a bit.
Sometimes when, when you have very sort of strict short term cost control, it can lead to not being able to make those kinds of long term investments that are needed or trading off cost control now versus long term solutions.
And ultimately coming back to what I was saying about, about flexibility, unlocking variable renewables into the grid. Of course variable renewables have close to marginal, zero marginal cost.
And so unlocking that, getting to a point where we have, where at least not on many days gas is not the marginal, the marginal cost is not being set by gas fired plants, we're going to really need to unlock a lot more variable renewable energy. And as such that kind of lower cost in the long term is really where it kind of could be a barrier for if we don't have a regulatory framework that's really going to allow for those investments, investments that understand of course that consumers are concerned about their short term costs now and telling them that they have cheaper electricity 10 years from now and more secure electricity is kind of nice. But they may say yes, but I have to pay my bills today.
And so this is why as sedso, we've invested in projects and our members want to it's not just EDSO that's in projects, it's our members who are in these projects as well, looking for innovations.
But also at the same time it's necessary if we look at the proposal from on the multi annual financial framework from the commission that we may need some kinds of, let's say bridge subsidies or bridge loans to help us get through this period to really unlock those kinds of investments. So I would say there's that. Regulatory barriers. Yeah, it's of course in some places maybe getting a sandbox is more difficult than others to try out new things that could be a barrier.
I would say though happily, ACER and SEER just last week published a guidance on distribution network development plans. And one of the things that we as EDSO really liked was that they said that the DSO should be looking at the national energy climate plans of the member state when considering, when drawing up their distribution network development plans. And that means taking a long term perspective. And that means that they themselves being sort of the. Well, ace, of course, the Agency for the Cooperation of Energy Regulators and SEER being their own association, that's at least a push from the top that we really like. And so we want regulatory stability. I think that's possible. Another barrier when you have instability, that probably is our largest one. There are a number of other things that could be identified and we identified some of them in the response to the European Commissions consultation.
But overall I would say these are the things that I would identify first.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: Of all, makes total sense. Charles, thank you very much for this comprehensive and to the point. Anastasia. I don't know if you would like to add something.
[00:22:28] Speaker C: I think Charles pretty much covered it. I would only reiterate, let's say maybe two key points that I can bring into this discussion again from the perspective of, of be flexible is that in order for this balance to be found between short term cost and long term system value, we first need to see truly neutral incentives so that grid operator operators are not pushed towards building new infrastructure just because it's rewarded, but they can choose flexibility solutions instead because it can be, and it is in most cases in the long run the most efficient option for the whole system. And secondly, planning in a longer horizon instead of a short term horizon, which means that building flexibility scenarios directly into network development plans and updating them as technologies scale up as well, it's not.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: So much energy regulators, but it is a regulatory issue. And so I should bring it up of course is the well known issue of lengthy permitting time as well, which, which can also sometimes, depending what it is, sometimes flexibility is not so, it's not so affected by that. But it could be, for example, the new energy storage project or something like that.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. And this is where I would like to evaluate or see a little bit the role of EDSO for smart grids in this context. And I would like to Ask you Charles, how does EDSO for Smart Grids envision the evolving role of DSOs in coordinating flexibility resources especially in the context of increasing electrification and decentralization?
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Yes, that's a very comprehensive question, I must say.
And yeah, I think that we ourselves see an ever greater role. Right. I mean once if you think about the DSO some years ago it was a one way, you know, just taking what the TSO sent us and taking down the voltage and putting it on. And that was a fairly relatively, let's say simple task. And now of course it's not a simple task at all with so much distributed generation, with demand response, with people having let's say batteries at home with vehicle to grid or with heat pumps and so forth. It can also be a kind of storage. So it's a much more complicated job now for the dso.
And so at the same time increasing electrification will mean that the grids have even more power on them or that we need to expand the grids. And I think it's a combination of, I should say this, it's not just about flexibility but it's also increased investment. We do need new build out. It's not an either or, it's a both from the perspective of edso.
And so I think you're going to have a shift away from the energy cost and into the let's say grid planning cost to a certain extent. And that's as long as the overall cost for the consumer. When you think about the cost of not having, not paying for petrol anymore, not having to import fossil fuels which can be high cost or, or have spikes due to international politics and things like that, the overall cost for the consumer we think will be, will be beneficial to 5 increased electrification. And we think increased electrification will actually make possible these kinds of investments that we need.
And so DSOs will play an ever greater role. But we also need the companies like this with battery storage operators which we don't, which of course DSOs are prohibited from owning or charge point operators or heat pump companies that, that can, that design their, their heat pumps in a way that that's let's say grid friendly. All this kind of grid friendly investment is something we need. And I think this is really the key thing is that we can, and we think about the investments that, that are needed. And, and of course there's your electric famous Grid for Grids for speed report from last year that, that outlined some of the costs. But certainly those costs can also be taken down when, when we, when we make the kinds of investments that are grid friendly. And so what we look for as DSOs is, is regulatory and political support to make the investments in a grid friendly way. And this can also mean now when we look at issues like going away from first come, first served on connections and looking at who gets the connection first. And of course there are social issues, undoubtedly. And you know, make the analogy that, you know, the hospital gets connected before the casino, but likewise, you know, it may be that the grid friendly data center gets connected before the grid unfriendly data center, all else equal. And so I think that's that kind of cooperation and thinking about things and having things being taken into account in a much more complex way. Going away from first come, first serve is just one example of that is where we're going with that.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Another example is also the various nationalities, the various countries within the European Union, because we are a multinational entity in the European Union. That can also perplex things a little bit more because not all countries within the Union are on the same level of absorbing or researching or innovating when it comes to flexibility.
So Anastasia, I would like to ask you at this point on behalf of Be Flexible, which has pilots in four different European countries, as you said, how important is EU level alignment in regulation to ensure that flexibility is scalable across different national systems?
[00:28:23] Speaker C: Really nice question. So surprise. EU alignment is very, very important.
It's absolutely key for a lot of things.
Flexibility, of course, as well.
And yeah, like you said, okay, we have EU wide, an EU wide approach. But in the end of the day, when we reach the national level, we end up with the patchwork of different realities.
And what we see in Be Flexible is that this diversity creates a learning opportunity because what we can do is look for the lowest common denominators, let's say. And we need to look for the ways that we can collaborate in order to agree upon certain common principles that we can. Because what we see is that, okay, one flexibility model or approach or technology that might work in one pilot, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will work in another, or it might.
So we need to identify these challenges or these opportunities when setting up these common principles. We should consider, okay, maybe we can find some common ground in terms of how we share our data.
What are the roles? Because like I said earlier, the energy system and achieving flexibility requires the contribution of many different actors in the energy system. So what are the roles that each actor should have? How should we conduct cost benefit assessments?
So answering these questions and finding those common principles will make it much easier to replicate Successful solutions and create a truly Europe wide flexibility market rather than isolated national experience. So we do expect that projects like Be Flexible set the ground for a more EU wide solution.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. And speaking of the roles that you mentioned of the various actors, I would like to discuss a little bit the roles and the collaboration between DSOs and TSOs. My question is to you, Charles. What kinds of collaboration between DSOs and TSOs and third parties, perhaps solution providers etc. Do you believe are essential for the future of smart grids? But not everything like the essential ones, if you had to choose two or three, let's say.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: Well, I was thinking about this a little bit and I really thought of the GoPacks example in the Netherlands, which GoPacks is a grid operators platform for ancillary services, but it's really a tool used by DSOs and TSOs and others participating to handle congestion, I.e.
capacity shortages on the grid. And so the Dutch DSOS and the TSO are involved in this and it allows them to sort of in this platform along with the, with the congestion service providers to really manage congestion and increase flexibility at all sort of voltage levels. And really thinking about whether you do that with via tenant, the tso, where you do that when it's of our Dutch members to actually be able to handle that all at once with a complicated and integrated platform that obviously has its algorithms that are more complicated than I can explain myself, but I think that's kind of the example of a cooperation that would be needed for that. And so you really want to maximize the interchange by having a kind of integrated platform. Of course, DSOS and the TSO in each member state or in any state it has more than one TSO, such as Germany. Of course, various TSOs talk to DSOs in their area and our members are always talking to the TSO and have dedicated staff for that. At European level, of course, it's also that in some of the projects we actually work with TSOs on these projects. And so remembering now Anastasia, whether there's the tso, particularly in B Flex, but certainly in other projects like Twin eu, which is a project to create a kind of a virtual twin of the entire electricity system in the EU that has the participation of lots of DSOs and TSOs and of course EDSO and NSOE. And so I think these kinds of projects, whether it's a Horizon project or it's an actual platform such as GoPacks or it's a kind of daily dialogue between the DSO and the TSO or work at European level with NSOE and including the UDSO entity as well, does work with nsoe. I think all those kinds of levels of cooperation are important to take us to where we need to go with the TSOs. And we certainly in the future we're looking at new Horizon projects calls and looking to work with TSOs on those project calls. And we're encouraged that the European Commission does put out Horizon projects that involve TSOs and DSOs to work more closely on issues like flexibility. There's a particular project call that's out now on this and I can come back to that in a bit if you want, but I think this is really the way to go and pleased that the European Commission sees the importance of us working together, whether it's a Horizon project or beyond.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the European Commission is quite adamant in the collaboration between DSOs and TSOs. And yes, there are plenty of programs. It's not only Horizon, there are other programs also, like Life, et cetera, that let's say, instigate and support the collaboration, which is indeed very needed. And top Anastasia, what policy shift or support mechanism would have the biggest positive impact on accelerating flexibility adoption right now, from the point of view of a project and specifically Be Flexible?
[00:34:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say this is quite a difficult question. I don't think it's really possible to separate and highlight one specific policy shift.
I would, let's say, extract an approach on the basis of the challenges that we addressed earlier that have to do with the fragmentation and the incentives that are at times biased, let's say, and not, not neutral. But in terms of be flexible, I would once again highlight the importance of finding ways to create collaboration in the, in such a fragmented context. And you know, projects like Be Flexible, like I mentioned earlier, they find and they, as a final result, they also have some common principles that can be scaled. And one thing that we could focus on or could be focused on is to really making the most out of these common principles, to taking from Be Flexible and other equivalent projects, allowing them to collaborate to find these common principles and really basing any policy shift on the basis of these principles.
That's what I would have to add.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: Thank you, Anastasia. Charles, what is your opinion? Also take into consideration that you have the experience of twin EU that you mentioned, a very big and very important, if I may say so, project for the European Grid.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Well, I would echo what Anastasia said and I mean, I think that we really, that kind of support at the European level is really essential and we see it going forward. We think that there are still yet things to discover.
I was just thinking about for example the horizon call on control and operation tools for rest based energy system that also has potential to help with flexibility. And so I think these kinds of efforts as they go on will, will develop a more the kind of cooperation and, and system that, that we need. And it's important because of course as well we don't need to take into account the technology is always, always changing.
I would note that for us as edso, one of the things we've tried to do is we've dropped something called a technology radar to look ahead at things that can come in the future.
And some of those may, some of those deal with flexibility but also say that in certain cases we've developed something called success cases where some of our members have taken things in various areas from resources to developing a technology, a new technology or using a new technology. But some of them, these success cases, and they're on our website, are cases where a particular member has been able to go further with flexibility than perhaps some others by taking an innovative approach. And, and so part of why EDSO exists is to, is to share those innovative approaches. Fortunately, as DSOs, we don't.
We're not, you know, a competitive industry in the sense that our members are not directly competing with each other. They may be benchmarked against each other in some member states but, but nevertheless they, there's really an incentive to, to rather share best practices. That's kind of one of the main reasons why an association like India so exists.
[00:38:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually quite good. Cooperation is like the mother of all things, not war, as Heraclitus said. Maybe, I don't know. But as we're approaching the end of our conversation, unfortunately, because I would love to pick your brains for a lot more time than I already have, I would like us to leave this conversation with a message, a message towards the commission. So I would like to ask you both, what one message would you like to leave policymakers with regarding flexibility and the role of innovation in Europe's energy transition?
Anastasia, ladies first, so please let us know.
[00:38:44] Speaker C: Thank you. Edit. I will kind of maybe take a similar approach to my answer in the previous question.
I will just say that, okay, as projects, we do our share, we have our exploitation strategies, we come up with our results and whatnot that businesses will exploit and make use of in the future. But I feel like at policy level, pay attention to what projects like bfexible work on and what their outcomes are and really integrate these tangible results into any policy developments that we expect ahead.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Well said. I totally agree with you, Charles.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: Thank you. I certainly agree with Anastasia and sort of. So taking that as a given, I'll just add one more thing. Thinking about policy makers and considering, you know, that we've been talking about the cooperation between TSOs and DSOs or with industry, I think policymakers, they'll have a role maybe and we do talk to them. But I think in terms of the general consumer, I mean there's the demand side of all of this and that means, you know, human behavior and you know, policymakers really trying to lead on that and understanding that, that there's a better electricity system to be had in the future with consumer participation.
Granted that consumer participation should be easy. It shouldn't be a new job for everyone on top of their current work life, but it really has a, a real benefit that can be played and, and so with, let's say a minimal effort that we can really have a, a much better system, can really have a system where maybe your appliances are smart where you're, and really, you know, responding to the DSO and, and, and you can benefit from that. And so I think that's, you know, I think Paul, if I were to have a message for policymakers who, who talk to them, maybe let's say here have facing the general public that would, I would add that.
[00:40:46] Speaker A: Excellent. And I'm sure your messages will reach the policymakers via this podcast, this humble podcast, but also via Enlight Europe in Bilbao 1820 of November, where both of you will be there representing, yes, representing Be Flexible and EDSO for smart Grids. Thank you so much both of you for this really interesting conversation.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: Thank you, Rati.
[00:41:10] Speaker C: Thank you, Aditi.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: You've been listening to the EU Energy Projects podcast, a podcast brought to you by Enlit and France. You can find us on Spotify, Apple and the Enlit World website.
Just hit subscribe and you can access our other episodes too. I'm Aretita Radimo. Thank you for joining us.
