Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast series from Enlida and France focusing on the clean energy transition for the European Union and the EU Commission funded energy projects that will help us achieve it.
As Europe accelerates electrification and expands renewable energy distribution system operators are becoming key enablers of the clean energy transition.
In today's episode I'm joined by Anastasius Manos, CEO of the Hellenic Electricity Distribution Network Operator, or hedno, to discuss how Greece's electricity network is evolving to meet the challenges and opportunities of the years ahead.
Anastasios, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm sure that our audience will be ecstatic to hear from you.
For our international audience, however, could you briefly explain hedno's role in Greece's electricity system and why as a DSO has become so central to the energy transition of Greece?
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Areti, thank you very much for the opportunity to have this discussion to exchange views and information.
So let me answer you the question and we take our discussion. HYDNO is Greece's distribution system operator.
In simple terms, we operate, maintain and develop the medium and low voltage network that brings electricity from the transmission system to homes, businesses, local industries, producers and prosumers.
This is a very large and complex system, around 250,000 kilometers of electricity lines, 4.5 million pillars, approximately 7.7 million customers, and responsibility also for the distribution systems in the non interconnected islands, which is a system, an additional system of unique 23 islands. The reason hydro has become so central is that the energy transition is now happening mainly at distribution level.
Renewable generation, electric vehicles, heat pumps, storage, self consumption, port electrification and new industrial loads all connect intrinsically to the distribution grid.
So the DSO is no longer just a passive operator of wires like in the past.
It increasingly becomes the enabler of decarbonization, flexibility, security of supply and active consumer participation.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: In the years that I've been a journalist for the energy transition, the interconnected islands have always been high in the agenda of the eu. However, I would like to discuss a little bit electrification because in one of your recent articles you described electrification as one of the defining trends of the coming decades. What are the main forces driving this transformation and how is it reshaping the role of the distribution grid?
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Electrification is being driven by three main forces.
The first is climate policy.
If we want to decarbonise transport, heating, ports and parts of industry, electricity has to replace traditional fossil fuels in many end users and this is fundamental.
The second is technology and in the technologies also the consumers. So the electric Vehicles, the heat pumps, the batteries, the digital systems and smart devices are becoming more efficient, more affordable. And the consumers in the broader sense have completely new set of needs which we need in very short time span to fulfill and serve.
The third is energy security.
Locally produced renewable electricity reduces dependence on imported fossil fuels. But on the other hand, it imposes completely new set of technological needs in order to accommodate this kind of of energy production.
For the distribution grid, this is a fundamental change. Demand is expected to increase significantly distribution level with new loads such as data centers, public EV charging, heat pumps, industrial electrification. As we discussed in Cold Ironing, we estimate that the electricity demand at distribution level may increase by around 24% by 2030, while data centers alone could add around a figure between 0.9 to 1.3 terawatt hours of new demand by 2034 for Greece.
So the grid must become more digital, more flexible, more resilient, not to mention
[00:05:07] Speaker A: ports that are rapidly becoming the talk of the town. We were at Bilbao last year with Enlit and the Port of Bilbao was very high in the agenda. Now the Port of Piraeus and the Port of Rotterdam are also very high in the agenda. However, one of hydno's flagship initiatives is the nationwide deployment of smart meters. And this is a very. As a Greek myself, it's a very important topic. Also, on a personal level, beyond replacing conventional meters, what tangible benefits will this bring for consumers and for the electricity system as a whole?
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Smart meters are much more than a meter replacement project and especially for Greece, which we have the benefit of second mover advantage.
They are the digital interface between the consumer and the electricity system.
For consumers, they mean, of course, accurate and timely consumption data, fewer estimated bills, easier supply switching, faster detection of outages, and the possibility to participate in a completely new set of services. As we discussed, such as dynamic tariffs and demand response.
For the system, the benefits are equally important. Smart meters provide detailed metering data, power quality, information outlet signals, tamper alarms for commercial losses, remote connection or disconnection capabilities, and going forward with the use of AI, they can even provide information about about preventive maintenance of the network.
HNU's rollout aims to replace all low voltage, single phase and three phase meters by 2030. And the new infrastructure will include advanced data systems, IoT connectivity, customer access ports, strong cybersecurity and privacy features, having again the benefit of the second mover advantage. To this end.
Already more than 1.7 million smart meters have already been installed and a little bit more than 6% of the consumer electricity is already Telemetered.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: So are you telling me basically about the smart meters that by 2030 the country will have smart meters all around or we will be in a very good, let's say, path?
[00:07:27] Speaker B: It is a clear answer with a clear plan exceeding deadlines, I mean overperform in terms of deadlines, that by 2030 all the country will be on smart meters. We are already minor details of numbers, but we already have met the barrier of installing more than 100,000 smart meters a month.
And before the end of the year we will have exceeded the 130,000 smart meters per month. Which means that we are on track with the right frame contracts, both in supply of material and also on contractors to deliver within 2030 everywhere.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Understood and good luck. Not that you need it.
So I would like to go back a little bit to electrification and electricity demand and tell you that we are seeing rapid growth right in electricity demand from electric vehicles, heat pumps, et cetera. You mentioned it already yourself. Is today's distribution network ready for this new era? Or do we need to fundamentally rethink how distribution grids are planned and operate? Not to mention the grid and if it can sustain, if it's feasible.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: The existing network, not only in Greece, but elsewhere, has been designed in a specific way to address needs that were not in reality changing or the changes were really slow.
The existing network has served the country well for decades, but the new era requires a completely different operating model.
Traditionally they were planned for one way flows. Electricity moved from the large power plants through the transmission and then down to distribution and then down to consumers. While today energy flows are increasingly bidirectional, so they're everywhere.
Consumers are also producers. We call them prosumers. Loads are more dynamic and local constraints can appear very quickly.
So yes, we need to completely rethink planning and operation.
You need to act with the agility of entrepreneur. In an industry, which was a really slow moving industry, reinforcement remains necessary, but it's not enough. We also need to have real time visibility, forecasting, digital twins, remote control smart meters, you name it, flexible connection agreements, storage, demand response and better coordination with the transmission operator, the suppliers and the large consumers.
So the key question is no longer only how much we need to invest to expand the network, but also how intelligently we can use the grid we already have in order to be in position to address timely all those upcoming needs and to get used to a continuous environment of changes.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Understood. So, about the prosumers, do we have prosumers in Greece? I mean, we do have some energy communities, but do we have a vast, let's say, community of prosumers, enough for you to take them into consideration when you do your planning.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Okay, thank you for the question. It's a really good question.
Yes we do.
And why I say yes we do is because the state back in 22, if I can recall correctly, it enhanced significantly with state support the use of photovoltaics on the roof. So in reality we had the first wave of real prosumers in the past still we had a few installations of photovoltaics in the roof. Nevertheless, the big wave was the last few years. So yes, we have some tens of thousands of new players that are both consumers and producers. We don't yet have vehicle in the picture, vehicle to home, vehicle to office, vehicle to grid whatsoever, but there is a significant number out there which we manage and we support.
And more legislations with the guidance of EU are coming towards this direction. Now we'll be having I think photovoltaic on the balcony. So they're there, they're coming and they're more and more.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Yes. I also read about electric taxis, etc. So let's hope for the best. I want to go back to cold ironing that you mentioned. However, onshore power supply or cold ironing has become a priority under the fuel EU and the Eiffier regulations. What is the role of HYDNO in that? And port electrification in Greece and how it differs from other European countries. Like for example the port of Bilbao I think is completely different from the port of Piraeus.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Okay. Coal earning is a very good example of why the distribution grid is becoming strategic.
From 2030, European rules will require certain vessels to use shoreside electricity or alternative zero emission technologies while at birth.
And ports will need to provide short side electricity for a high share of eligible port calls.
Given the logistics of special marine fuel, the electricity solution seems to be the more valid one. In Greece the challenge is particularly complex because of our geography.
We have many islands, we have many different port authorities, we have seasonal demand, we have non interconnected, which means that the existing infrastructure cannot really support potential needs and limited local grid capacity in general because of the evolution.
Hytnod's role is therefore not simply to provide a grid connection.
The idea we have developed is an extension to grid model where HTNO shall have a stronger role in developing, owning and own operating the end to end OPS infrastructure.
While ports provide space and coordinate port operations and electricity suppliers compete to serve the end users.
In that manner we'll provide will give the means or the Platform to have the most competing environment.
Why is that?
Why? We differ from many European models where the typical port.
This differs from many European models where the port typically owns and operates the OPS infrastructure.
It has been noticed widely that this has led to significant markups to the prices and in reality, creating even suffocation to the vessels and to the corresponding routes.
Such involvement in Greece, with the needs to support our passengers and our island and their competitiveness, it might even be catastrophic.
So for the Greek context, a more central DSO LED model can improve technical reliability because we offer the full service, we offer the maintenance, we offer the development, we offer the standardization across tens of different islands. So this by definition lowers the cost, fair pricing, because there is clear wide competition between the suppliers for the lower price they can offer with direct connection to the vessel and supplier competition. And of course, the port will have a rational markup for the connection capabilities, but not a monopolistic behavior.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. Fair pricing is very important, given also the latest geopolitical challenges. Speaking of challenges, Greece has experienced remarkable growth in renewables.
So, looking ahead, what would you say is the biggest challenge? Building more renewable capacity or ensuring that the distribution network can integrate it efficiently?
[00:16:35] Speaker B: Both are important. I cannot exclude one over the other. The main, of course, challenge is increasingly integration, which couples with what we have said earlier about flexibility, making more use of what we have and reducing the time to serve.
Greece has already achieved a very strong growth in renewables. And let me speak for Hydno. There has been a rapid increase from around 3.7 3.9 gigawatts back in 2019 to close to 9.3 in 2025 and close the year with close to 10 gigawatts. So we're talking about an increase of plus 130% or more.
And in just a few years.
The next phase is about how to host more renewables without compromising security of supply or creating extensive curtailments, let alone take into account that Greece is in the top three positions globally in percentage of photovoltaics penetration and in the rate of increasing. That means that of course, creating more grid capacity takes years to do.
So we need to improve the flexibility of the overall system, more visibility, remote control, automation, storage, forecasting and flexibility. The question now, it's not only how many megawatts we can connect, but how many megawatts we can operate safely and efficiently. And Greece and Chernobyl had been really proactive on that by asking for a legislation that would allow us to control in full the fleet connected to us above 400 kilowatts and that has given us the ability more than 75% of the Ringiums connected to our fleet to be telecontrolled in real time, securing in reality the system in full against blackouts. And that's a very vivid example of how we have managed to integrate more
[00:18:54] Speaker A: efficiently Grid congestion and connection queues have become increasingly important issues across Europe.
What investments or innovations do you believe are most critical to unlocking additional renewable energy capacity in Greece?
[00:19:12] Speaker B: The first priority is targeted reinforcement of substantions and network clients where there are real bottlenecks.
The second is digital control of renewable generation.
As I explained earlier, HNA is already integrating renewable stations into SCADA and moving towards automated real time remote control through energy management systems with the proper also legal framework.
The third priority is the smarter use of our existing grid capacity. This includes dynamic operating limits, zero injection schemes where appropriate, storage demand side flexibility and better of course forecasting. We also need to reduce connection uncertainty because long queues can create the impression of capacity scarcity even when not all projects will actually be implemented.
Nevertheless, let's don't forget that the total number of renewables applications in the country far exceed any potential future need.
So this also needs a special design of what where shall be accept it.
Lastly, a more detailed and data driven connection process can help unlock capacity faster and more fairly.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Okay, good to hear. I would like to discuss a little bit technologies because that is also a very important issue for Greece I would assume, but certainly for the European Commission.
Now across Europe, DSOs are exploring technologies such as artificial intelligence, digital twins, etc. Which of these innovations do you believe will have the greatest impact on HYDNO over the next decade?
[00:21:00] Speaker B: I would not separate them completely because in reality the greatest impact or the real impact comes when these technologies work together.
Smart meters and sensors create the data. Digital twins help us understand the topology and real time condition of the network.
Artificial intelligence help detect patterns, forecast demand and generation, identify faults, detect non technical loss and prioritize maintenance.
So for head note, the artificial intelligence, enhanced meter data management and the operational intelligence will be especially important.
The smart meter ecosystem is designed to support energy balancing, anomaly detection, outage detection, transform load analysis, demand response, enablement, consumption analytics and forecasting.
Over the next decade the biggest change will be moving from knowing after the event to predicting again as we mentioned earlier and acting before the problem becomes visible to the consumer. On this point, let me add a broader comment about AI.
AI can deliver results when it can continuously have new data and the results of this AI study can be Adopted change what you are doing and then produce new data and then continues this circle of continuous improvements.
This is why the technologies need to work together in order to maximize the effect.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, speaking of data, I've heard from consultants and energy experts that now they tend to describe DSOs as evolving from infrastructure operators into data and flexibility operators. How is this transformation changing head no, as an organization, first of all, if you agree with that, of course.
And what new skills will be required from the workforce?
[00:23:09] Speaker B: As I have been openly serving to various meetings with our managers every year.
By 2030, Shedno should be a technological company that so it happens that the underlying asset is cable meters, pillars, transformers and systems. But it shall should be a technology company.
So this transformation changes quite dp. A DSO will always need strong electrical engineers, experienced field crews, solid asset management capabilities. Because of the underlying asset, these remain the backbone of the organization.
But the energy transition is adding new layers of complexity. And we now also need people with skills in all these new directions of data analytics, cybersecurity software, artificial intelligence, forecasting, flexibility, markets regulation, customer facing digital services. And this is where the element of technology grows so big.
So the workforce of the future must be able to combine the electricity expertise because we're in the utility and energy market with digital and analytical capabilities.
A protection engineer, for example, increasingly works with digital platforms and real time data network planner needs forecasting tools and scenario analysis. A field technician uses mobile applications, has real time information on the areas where he's going, GIS and live network information.
At the same time, we must not underestimate the importance of manual and technical roles because the transition still has to be built and maintained on the ground and actually on locations that each time is different, it's not in a predetermined, confined place like a plant.
So for me, the key point is that digitalization does not replace traditional grid expertise, it expands it and enhances it.
The challenge is to reskill and upskill people, systematically transfer the knowledge from the experienced colleagues, attract new profiles into the sector and altogether the workforce to be improved and enhanced, to be developed. The future DSO will be an organization where engineers, technicians, data specialists, market experts work together around the same objective for a more reliable, flexible and decarbonized electricity system of a technology company.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: That makes total sense. But I would like right now to touch a little bit on climate change and the situation. Greece is also in a very peculiar position because we've always had heat waves, but now we have insane rain, sometimes like tropical rains.
So climate resilience has become a top priority for electricity networks worldwide. What investments do you consider essential to ensure that Greece's distribution grid can withstand increasingly frequent and severe weather events?
[00:26:26] Speaker B: I will make an introduction first with two bits of information.
The one part is that especially Greece has special peculiarities.
It's not new.
We can be one week in Sahara extreme heat wave. Next week we can be in Nordics with extreme snowfalls. The week after we can be in Malaysia with one millennia flood in central Greece. And then we have to accept the winds of the Atlantic hitting us.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: So really it is a reality that we can be in a completely different continents in very short, different time spans.
The other thing that it has also to do with the economy, but certainly it's for climate.
In the economy. We used to say about black swans and we have been facing financial crisis or challenges at least every two or three years.
So it has become a normality.
So climate change is here and the normality is that climate has become not predictable.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: So climate resilience requires a combination of fiscal and digital investments. On the fiscal side we need, yes, stronger lines and substantions, selective undergrounding, because we cannot underground the whole country where it makes sense. Vegetation management and fire prevention measures, flood protection and better spare equipment strategies.
We are working on all of them. On the digital side we need real time monitoring, automated fault detection, advanced output management and better use of weather forecasting. So it is all the tools that we have been discussing also together earlier. So HEDNO is already moving in the direction through grid digitalization, GIS integration, scada. We now have two central command centers, North Greece, South Greece and one is a doctor of the other outage management system, smart meters and modern way to manage them. We have already deployed two advanced, as I explained, national control centers and with significant processes. We have also completed the GIS integration, allowing us to identify affected consumers more quickly during falls. For us, resilience is not only about rebuilding stronger after an extreme event, but it's also detecting the problems earlier, isolating them faster and restoring supply more efficiently.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: And innovation. Research and innovation is quite important in that I would assume because as you said, the peculiar, the strange has become the new normal.
And this is why HEDNO participates In more than 21 European research and innovation projects. Now, how important are EU funded initiatives in accelerating innovation? And how do you ensure that research outcomes are translated into real benefits for the grid and above all for the consumers?
[00:29:33] Speaker B: EU funded projects are extremely important because they allow DSOs, technology providers, universities and regulators to first come together.
Secondly, come together in a safe Environment where they can only produce knowledge without friction points, and then test solutions before they are deployed at scale. It's a fundamental competitive advantage of the European Union as its whole. They reduce the risk of innovation, create a broader European learning environment. This is particularly viable for areas such as flexibility, digital twins, cybersecurity storage, electricity mobility, energy communities and port electrification.
But the real test is not participation in the project. The real test is whether the results, as you really mentioned, enter daily operations.
For that reason, we need to design pilots with operational teams from the beginning, define clear use cases, measure performance, and then decide what should be scaled.
Innovation must not remain in reports. It must become better reliability, faster connection, lower losses, more recent aggression, better service for consumers. What I need to highlight though, is that for us, for the companies, we may need to experiment more and move much faster from innovations or pilots in vitro to industrial pilots or deployment in general.
So I would propose that the pilot projects, or the test beds, let's say, to be much leaner, faster, in order to go at a larger scale, because the changes are so dynamic that we don't have the same benefit of time in testing solutions as we had before. And yes, we need to be trained to assume and take risks.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: And looking ahead to 2035, what do you expect Greece's distribution networks will look like? Which transformation do you believe will have the greatest impact, but perhaps receives too little attention today?
[00:31:49] Speaker B: By 2035, HYBNO shall be a technological company and the distribution network should be more digital, automated and decentralized. More consumers will have.
Actually, all consumers will have smart meters. Many households and businesses will also have solar panels, batteries, electric vehicles or heat pumps.
With extended set of services in this area, ports, islands and data center. Industrial users will be much more electrified with new sources of energy, greener.
And the grid will have to coordinate millions of devices, not just thousands of assets. And it's going to be an interconnected grid.
The transformation that receives too little attention is low voltage visibility. Many discussions focus on the large renewable projects and transmission infrastructure. But now the real complexity of the future will often appear at the low voltage level, which is huge.
And the local congestion, the voltage issues, the EV charging peaks, the rooftop pv, the batteries and the flexible loads. Imagine that all these will create a kind of waves on the network. And in order to have stability, resilience and the proper service to the consumer, the broader consumer, it will need a lot of technology.
So if we get low voltage visibility and control right, the whole energy transition becomes easier, cheaper and more reliable, with a clear financial benefit.
And why is that?
It is because when you increase all this flexibility, you drive also competition. When you drive competition, you drive optionality. And through competition optionality, in reality, you drive prices down.
And occasionally, while the cost per se for supporting the network it might be higher, the total cost of energy through the competitiveness of the broader environment shall be less for the end consumer.
[00:34:15] Speaker A: So, good thing that the low voltage visibility is on your radar and on fednose radar. As we're finishing our conversation, I would like to ask you one final question.
If you could change just one aspect of today's energy ecosystem to accelerate, of course, Europe's energy transition, not only Greece in general, for Europe, what would it
[00:34:37] Speaker B: be and why that would be so? This is the bridge of how I finished the previous question. I would change the way we treat the grid investment.
In Europe, we often discuss generation targets first and network afterwards.
This creates structural delay. Clean generation, electrification and flexibility all depend on the grid.
So network investment must move ahead of demand, not only react to it.
This of course does not mean spending without discipline. It means anticipatory investment based on transparent planning, clear regulation and strong accountability.
On the other hand, we've never seen before. At Zili, we cannot have plans of four or five years ahead, which cannot be adjusted the DSOs themselves. But then the regulators should be even in position because of the needs of the society in the environment to adapt and change the plans even once or twice a year.
So it needs completely different approach. If we want more renewables, electronic electric mobility, heat pumps, data centers and port electrification.
The distribution grid must be treated as an enabling platform, not as a bottling to be addressed at the end.
And let me share also an example of the competitiveness and what it means.
During the Ukraine war, when it started back in 2022, Chedno was connecting more than 1.1, 1.2 gigawatts of renewables per year.
Imagine that in two years we connected close to 2.3 or 4 gigawatts.
The renewables had a specific price electricity.
At that time, electricity was moving up high to 400 or €500 per megawatt hour.
The total benefit of it for the Greek energy system, because of the cheaper green means of production entering was more than 1.2 billion.
Impressive number True in reality, for two years, Chedno was at zero total cost for the Greek consumer.
How did it happen? Because of flexibility, because of agility, because of speed, because we asked for more investment and we were allowed to connect those renewables. But it's a completely different universe of how you act and you adapt to the external needs.
And it's just a mere example of how grids can become a catalyst or enable of total cost improvement through proper different set of managing it and designing it.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: That's amazing. And we should shout it through the rooftops, as they say. Anastasios, thank you so much for this very, very interesting conversation.
And I'm sure I'll see you at the Elite Europe 2026 in Vienna in November.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: We got to join you. Thank you very much.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: You've been listening to the EU Energy Projects Podcast, a podcast brought to you by Enlit and France. You can find us on Spotify, Apple and the Enlit World website.
Just hit subscribe and you can access our other episodes too. I'm Areddi Daradimo. Thank you for joining us.
